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aftermarket frames
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Posted by: freeride132

i was curious what yous guys opinons were on aftermarket frames, im thinking about buying one for next season since mines about done

i was looking at the lonestar baja chassis and for 2400 i wanna do some research, i race mx and everytime i ride im hitting jump...i heard that chromoly and steel both crack eventually but chromoly especially because its so rigid, my question is...
am i throwing away my money buying a aftermarket frame? how long should i get out of a new oem chassis if i have the shock mounts gusseted and steering post support? in the long run which will be less headaches ?
at such a high price i want to have it last me seasons without having to worry

what woudl you guys do, id like any info or opinions you guys have... please post

Posted by: mx400

in my opinion i would run a LSR frame. also you could see if they would sell you a good deal on one of their Ti frames. they are supposed to be unbreakable and light as hell. probably ungodly price though. i mean any frame with the proper gusseting will be good but most all frames(except Ti) will break eventually. the Ti frames will take a hell of alot more beating but so will your wallet

Posted by: QuadMX18

go with an arens when they come out there like 1500

Posted by: OCCRA288

quote:
Originally posted by mx400
in my opinion i would run a LSR frame. also you could see if they would sell you a good deal on one of their Ti frames. they are supposed to be unbreakable and light as hell. probably ungodly price though. i mean any frame with the proper gusseting will be good but most all frames(except Ti) will break eventually. the Ti frames will take a hell of alot more beating but so will your wallet

I've heard from some people that titanium is not the best out there. It gets extremely brittle when welded on. I don't think I could go that route. Besides what would you use to weld up a crack in that??

Oh yeah I'm with QuadMX18 on this one wait for the Arens.

His frames aren't the million mile frames for nothing.

Posted by: freeride132

if i buy a frame it will be lsr, the titanium gets brittle and cracks from what i hear...i may wait a season, buy a new stock one then go with the lsr frame that uses 400ex geometry for a crf in a season or two

Posted by: Dave400ex

Get the Arens where you will be able to run the 400 motor, then put the 450 in when your ready.

Posted by: freeride132

im not buying a arens unless there out for awhile

Posted by: Narly R

well Im not going to buy a new frame untill my stoker brakes. and when i do i think i might buy like a LSR 450/426 frame so I can put all my r stuff on it like shocks a-arms and stuff, and then I could make the switch from a 2 stroke to a 4, and not be out too much money.

I say wait a season cause you might blow up ur engine this season and would wish that you had have that 2400 dollars to make your bike go.

Posted by: Martin Blair

quote:
Originally posted by freeride132
i was curious what yous guys opinons were on aftermarket frames, im thinking about buying one for next season since mines about done

i was looking at the lonestar baja chassis and for 2400 i wanna do some research, i race mx and everytime i ride im hitting jump...i heard that chromoly and steel both crack eventually but chromoly especially because its so rigid, my question is...
am i throwing away my money buying a aftermarket frame? how long should i get out of a new oem chassis if i have the shock mounts gusseted and steering post support? in the long run which will be less headaches ?
at such a high price i want to have it last me seasons without having to worry

what woudl you guys do, id like any info or opinions you guys have... please post

i would run a lrd attude frame like bill ballance there close to the same price, and the attitude frame is lighter but just as strong.

Posted by: K_Fulk

I would just gusset the frame i already have and run it till it breaks in half.

Posted by: nacsracer27

http://www.laegerracing.com/images/frame3.jpg

Posted by: freeride132

i dont want a lrd frame, only lonestar, my frame i have now is fatigued and just keeps cracking i think i might go stock and run the lsr crf frame that runs ex geometry next year

Posted by: Jnine

We've built over 500 of the 250R frames, and even some 4 strokes frames that we never advertise but are out there. The point is, they have been out there a LONG while, and they will be a LOT longer.

Posted by: Chef

quote:
Originally posted by mx400
in my opinion i would run a LSR frame. also you could see if they would sell you a good deal on one of their Ti frames. they are supposed to be unbreakable and light as hell. probably ungodly price though. i mean any frame with the proper gusseting will be good but most all frames(except Ti) will break eventually. the Ti frames will take a hell of alot more beating but so will your wallet

I doubt the Ti frame would work for MX of any sort. Its a TT frame.

Posted by: freeride132

quote:
Originally posted by Jnine
We've built over 500 of the 250R frames, and even some 4 strokes frames that we never advertise but are out there. The point is, they have been out there a LONG while, and they will be a LOT longer.

what if i buy a new one and its junk? you gonan say oh well or help me out?

is it chromoly? do you swear by that? any type of warranty?

i dont have problem buying your new ex crf frame this winter if you will promise me a two things

1. its chromoly
2. any problems you will do your best to fix....i dotn want something thats gonan crack after a season

for the price id buy one as long as you take care of me....ive heard bad customer service and craftsmanship and its made me shy away from the arens...

Posted by: Jnine

Do you really think I could have built over 500 of them if they were "junk" as you say? You'll never get one from me that is "junk", I promise you..

As for standing behind it, I have NEVER had to replace (or even fix) one yet for anyone. I have some guys that buy a new one every year, and then they sell the other to a local guy for almost the same money as the new one. My frames have been raced in every type of ATV racing today, (I'm not sure about hill climbing however) and have won in every type of event. In fact, if you look back at the June 2000 Dirt WHeels, you will find a frame shootout we won as well, and that frame had over 3000 miles of desert racing on it. After that it went on to a couple wins and another 3000 miles in the desert. With no cracks! From there it was sold to a guy in Canada, and I offered to make him a deal on a new one last month, and he won't sell it to me! The racers who know started calling them the "million mile frame". They are not junk. As always though, buy as you wish.

Posted by: freeride132

i never said they were junk dont get angry...so is the ex frame 100% chromoly ? why is it cheaper than the R frame? if it was production couldnt you do the same with the R?

Posted by: Jnine

I would be REALLY interested in knowing where you heard those things. Once again, I doubt we could have made as many frames as I have if any of that was true. As far as I know, we make more frames than anyone else. Again, if you can provide me a name of your source, I would be very intereted in following up on that.

As for the material, they certainly are Chromoly and a couple other alloys that actually work better in a couple places. I would be happy to show you the MIL Spec certification sheets on each material. (That is the certificate required by the MIL testing standard from each steel mill that tells what the material is.) Actually, we buy enough Chromoly that we're probably buying it for about 1/2 the price of anyone else. There is no reason for me to use any other material unless it is better. There are a couple alloys that actually do have better engineering properties, and I do use them. As for quality, regardelss of what the company did, remember the Cannondale parts were known for EXCELLENT quality, and we beat their parts in strength and quality by THEIR OWN standrds. In fact, they tested almost every aftermarket manufacturers parts, and we're the only ones who passed.

Posted by: freeride132

it was one of your unsatisfied customers.....so when will this frame be done? if you swear by your work ill pic one up this winter without a doubt as long as there is good customer service and you state this frame is as good as your R frame....

Posted by: Jnine

The materials of the new 400EX frame are Chromoly, and to be honest the material cost isn't really a big deal in the cost of making a frame. There are manufacturing reasons for the cost difference, and we have to compete with a frame that is cheaper from the dealer. You can't buy a new 250R frame from your dealer since Honda quit making them, and it is much more difficult to make an "R" frame.

Posted by: muff

i would def. go with arens....just look, he's the one on here whos trying to get feedback and new ideas from us as riders, plus his frame prices will be hard to pass up when comparing to any other company out there

hopefully i'll be getting a ex/crf frame setup the season after this one

Posted by: Dave400ex

You want to talk about junk and your comparing Arens and LSR? You have to be out of your mind to buy a LSR over Arens. I think John makes one of the best frames out there, and was nice enough to spend over an hour talking to me about a bunch of stuff at Red Bud when he was busy. I have his Steering Stem and love it. The overall quality, looks, and performance are great. (I need some stickers for it though) I would run anything John makes and I know it's top notch stuff. You won't have to worry about how his service is, because you shouldn't have any problems with the frame to begin with. I would love to have every Arens product on my 400. (John make some Standard Width Arms for me

) Buy the Arens frame and you WILL be happy. Arens #1

Posted by: freeride132

what lonestar stuff have u owned and why was it junk?

Posted by: Dave400ex

I've never owned anything LSR and never will. Just from seeing all the stuff on this site is one thing, but I have talked to the local shops and racers and they have all had problems with their stuff. I never said LSR was junk, but rather your nuts for comparing the Arens frame to the LSR when the Arens has had over 3,000 miles with no problems. As a matter of a fact somebody on this site said they know who has that frame now, and it's still going strong with no problems. It seems like people doubt John's products because you don't see his parts ran by the Pro's like you do the other ones. I would buy his CRF frame over anything else. Plus for you the fact that you will be able to run your EX until you have the money for a CRF motor, I don't see how you couldn't get an Arens when you wouldn't have to buy a whole new frame for the CRF.

Posted by: BigThumper33

I believe John is always one of the only guys I know that can say they have extended education in engineering... I would feel comfortable running any of his stuff.

John, is this new 400/450 frame going to use 400ex a arms and swing arm mounts? Can I transfer my aftermarket a arms and swingarm to this new frame?

Posted by: Jnine

Hello guys:

The new 400EX / CRF frames we're making right now will take the stock EX a-arms, stem, swingarm, airbox, plastic, etc. I had to make them that way. Everyone already has stock parts made for that frame, and I didn't want to force everyone to change by making them obsolete.

As for the pro guys running my parts, I have pros that want to run my parts, including champions, but they are under contract with other companies so they can't talk about it, and I can't tell anyone or advertise it when they do. If you look very closely at who is running what parts in the pro class, the stickers do not always match the parts.

Hope that answers your questions.

JA

Posted by: Dave400ex

John the sticker part is the truth. Gust used to run an AC Bumper/Nerfs and always had DG stickers on them. Plus I noticed many guys with different stickers on their axles, but most of them run RPM. I think that would be awesome to have the Pro's running your stuff.

Posted by: freeride132

hmmmm if youll have them doen this winter ill buy one

Posted by: Guy400

I can speak first hand on the LSR frame. I won't say it's junk but I will say that things didn't line up like they should and fitment of some stuff was a bit sketchy. Find the old Project400EX thread and you can get all the details of the frame in there.

Posted by: jlhughes750

check this out!!!!!!!!!!
I have over 10 years experience breaking everone products. I race GNCC style races here in Pa. I have broken the LSR where the pro peg welds on to the frame from hard woods riding. My Roll cracked on the bottom between the a arms and appeared to be welded in crooked to begin with. My leager cracked around the swing arm pivot and bent on the bottom engine rails. These are all great companys and all make outstanding products, but they still had problems.

Now lets talk about Arens frames!!! (friends bikes) 2 years of GNCC thats over 60 hours and nearly1400 miles of hard core white nuckle hammer down pounding in the Pro class. I stripped it after 2 years to rebuild it and there was not so much as a scratch on it.. I read the DW article and saw the frame shootout. That frame went through several Baja's. Another friend races MX here in Pa. He has 3 seasons on his including leaps of OVER 130ft. at a local ride park for videos. Crazy heel clickers,supermans, etcs. lots of bottoming out and just plain abuse. He won't give his up, its still perfect...

Knowing all this, i am building my next racer using Arens Bros. components, i'm convinced there's no better frame out there. Thats not from what i've heard its from what i've experienced. Arens is the frame for me. I've had junk for free, i'd rather pay for Arens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

later, J
95 and 99 District 6 Harescramble champion

Posted by: trx400ex

I can speak first hand that everything LSR makes is junk.. IF John Arens built it, i would race on it without even looking at it first...Im with Dave....how can you buy LSR over ARENs ROFLMFAO

Posted by: 440 pumpkin

JB Racing chasis. No offence to Arens. I hear and know JA makes some real quality components.

Posted by: bongwater200

quote:
Originally posted by freeride132
it was one of your unsatisfied customers.....so when will this frame be done? if you swear by your work ill pic one up this winter without a doubt as long as there is good customer service and you state this frame is as good as your R frame....

JNINE..... after listening to this little punk-*** bozo ramble on like a dork, I wouldn't even sell him a frame! Its likely that he'd just end up being a thorn in your side if he could even scrounge together enough allowance money to buy any of your products! Hell.... he's probably saving up just to buy a decal kit for his POS.

I'd avoid punks like this like the friggin plague and just move on to the next guy in line with a fist full of cash!

Freeride..... you wouldn't know chromoly from cactus if you had 20 meters of either one stuck in your ACE.

Posted by: freeride132

why do you guys get so pissed?

ive heard good things about the lsr baja chassis....and i heard some bad things about arens, whether there true or not im still gonan check it out thats what smart people do......

bongwater...i thought you were cool ....oh well if you think my quad is a pos so be it, im 18 years old i dont get allowance money....im buying elkas, a frame, steering stem,t2 bars, new skids, ims pegs and ****load of other stuff this winter...if he doesnt want my business so be it, i can go else where....he seems like a nice guys.....

bongwater if my quad is a pos id really liek to see yours

Posted by: muff

quote:
Originally posted by freeride132
bongwater...i thought you were cool ....oh well if you think my quad is a pos so be it, im 18 years old i dont get allowance money....im buying elkas, a frame, steering stem,t2 bars, new skids, ims pegs and ****load of other stuff this winter...if he doesnt want my business so be it, i can go else where....he seems like a nice guys.....

yea dont worry about him... i can't figure out what his problem is even after rereading this entire thread...all you're doing is gettin the info so you can make the best decision you can with the money available, i say congrats to you. from what i have read online arens is a great guy and he's obviously trying to help us out

could one of the mods delete bongwaters post so this thread can continue without all the bashing and madness

this would be a good thread to stay open

Posted by: freeride132

i havent been into quads long enough to determine who makes a better frame all i can do is go by hearsay and then attempt to find out if there is any truth to it all ,from my expirience with arens he seems like a good guy and im definetly gonna do business with him in the future, i dont like the aluminum lrd /laeger frame and i really liked what i heard about the lsr,now im liking what i hear about the arens even more and especially for the price, the questions i asked jnine he answered and i feel pretty confident in saying what he told me was the truth because it made sense to me, and it also makes me feel better when i hear people say how great his products are because if they swear by them then they must not make a bad product as i was hearing from another member, i mean in no way to badmouth arens im just trying to get as much info as i can and base my decision on that

Posted by: phatswinn

personally, ive heard plenty about the arens frames being well built and runn forever and that would make me put them on the top of my list for any parts i want

but having the jnine himself on the site anwering all the questions asked anytime is what makes me have no doubt in my mind that his products are the only products i will be buying in the future

Posted by: bmw500hp

quote:
Originally posted by freeride132
i mean in no way to badmouth arens im just trying to get as much info as i can and base my decision on that

freeride, information gathering is a critical and normal part of the buying decision. Remember,

"the only stupid question is the one that is not ask"

What I am hearing from you is that your frame has cracked, possibly multiple times. You know it really needs to be replaced but your having trouble justifying the expense of an aftermarket.

Therefore if you step up and purchase an aftermarket frame you prefer to be guaranteed your current situation is not repeated and that you have made a wise finiancial investment in regard to value.

I am respectful but curious?? if all the frame manufacturers offered a lifetime guarantee, and all were guaranteed to use the same grade of chromoly, at this point, to which frame would you choose to invest?

And if you don't mind, why would you choose that particular brand?

Posted by: Jnine

Hello Guys:

The fact is no frame maker can really guarantee their parts forever. There are too many variables involved that are beyond their control. How does the guy ride? Does he flat land every jump? Does he keep his stuff in good condition? What kind of shocks and are they setup correctly for what he is doing? There are so many unknown variables. The fact is, for what we are doing and for most riders the frames are overbuilt. I have built some very light frames just to test them, and some have years of racing on them with no cracks, but I won't release them to the public. I KNOW the shocks we have work, and I can count on the rider.

There are really only a couple major frame makers these days anyway, (myself & LSR) and there are a few other guys making a handfull of frames. In fact, I made the mistake of giving one of them too much info (like materials and sources) when he bought a frame from me, and now he builds a few also. The good part about that is, he clearly has no idea what is happening with the vehicle, and I can tell by looking at his work. You can copy something once, but when it comes time to improve the product you are sunk. That's where he's at. As for LSR, I don't have any problems with the LSR frames. I think Scott Butler has really made some great improvements there, and if you really want a comletely custom quad, that is the place to go. In your case, the the best thing you can go on is track record, and that is clearly in my favor.

Posted by: freeride132

hmmm at this point i think i would buy a arens because hes been answering my questions and everyone else except the 1 person i talked to has had all good comments,and everyone has stated that his frames last, and he explained to me the difference in cost and im comfortable now with thinking the new frame will be just as nice as his r frame, i dont expect a warranty but if something is wrong or it cracks prematurely i wanna be able to get help, i dont continuly case or overjump jumps

i always liked laegers and i really didnt know much about the other frame manufactuers besides lsr and now i do

thanks for answering my questions jnine i have a couple more if you dont mind

does the frame come with a subframe? if i buy the frame for my ex and at a later date put a crf in can i buy all the parts to put the crf in from you? what colors do they come in? for the ex you said ever stock thing bolts up correct? the mounts for the engine skid are still there right?

thanks

Posted by: quadracer400

A buddy of mine bought a Lonstar frame and cracked it within 2 weeks of ridinig MX. I reinforced mine and i have never had a problem with it, and i have had taken some pretty hard hits. I recomend that you dont get one. Unless it is one of those new Alluminum frames form LRD, I heard those are nice.

Posted by: bongwater200

quote:
Originally posted by freeride132

....ive heard bad customer service and craftsmanship and its made me shy away from the arens...

If freeride132 or anyone else wants to ask questions of Arens Bros. or any other company, that's fine! However, the quote above is the type of thing that royally pisses me off! If you've HEARD these things and don't have proof or personal experience, then that's all heresay, and that's ALL it is. When you print this crap on a message board, it becomes PUBLISHED SLANDER. If you made that very same post about MY company, I'd sue the living dog **** out of you! (and I'd win, guaranteed!)

Like BMW said, the only stupid question is one that's not asked. But leave the heresay at home, kiddies! This board is about information, whether its shared or gained. But don't come on here blabbing this crap around all willy-nilly because nobody wants to hear it!

If you buy Arens products, you won't be disappointed. There are other good products out there also, but if you combine quality, customer service, and price, he'll beat most of them hands down!

Posted by: HONDA55

Posted by: quadracer400

I anit tryin to hate on any company im just sayin from what i have seen, I never told anyone to do anything. And i didnt say Sh** about Arens!!!!!!

Posted by: freeride132

well you guys practically rammed arens down my throat, i didnt even start this post asking anything about arens, i avoided it for awhile so then i posted why i didnt ask about arens slander would be if i made a thread that said bl bla bla makes pieces of crap dont buy them...i talked to another member extensively and he told me of his expirence of dealing with arens and lsr and he also told me some good things about lonestar, at this point im leaning more towards arens

by the way id just coutner sue you for the slander you posted about me

because you have no clue what your talking about

Posted by: quadracer400

Freeride132 i wasnt directing it towards you. And i didnt post no slander about you either. I was just stating from personal experience. I run lonestar parts on my quad but im not a big fan of there frames. Thats all i said, I wasnt tryin to diss Arens, I also heard good things about them and a few other company such as Walsh. I aint tryin to start Shi**. I was just giving a opinion, thats all.

Posted by: freeride132

my post was directed towards bongwater, your posts is what i want to hear

Posted by: quadracer400

Oh sorry about that. That really pisses me of I give an opinion and i get Bi***ed at. It's cool though. So what frame are you leaning towards???

Posted by: Dave400ex

Bongwater200 I know where your coming from, but you have to remember this is a forum and he was just stating what somebody told him. That has been done many times about different brands of parts. You will have that. He asked questions and got them answered by John and now I think he will make a good choice and go with Arens.

Posted by: freeride132

im pretty sure ill be buying a arens

Posted by: quadracer400

Would you be able to convert the frame over later on if you wanted to fit a crf450 if you wanted????

Posted by: freeride132

i was wondeirng that too

Posted by: Dave400ex

Yes this frame will be able to hold both the EX and CRF motor. The EX frame will be cheaper, because the CRF frame will come with the radaitor and everything you need to mount the CRF up I believe.

Posted by: freeride132

what do the arens steering stems run? im gonan buy a +1 steering stem too ill probaly buy it all at once

Posted by: Dave400ex

The Antivibe Stems are $249 with your choice of standard or oversized bar clamps. They also come with a new bottom nut and powdercoated. I have one and like it a lot. I actually noticed a difference in some of the impacts while I was racing. She has held up very well so far.

Posted by:

If your taller than 5"10 a +1 antivibe stem is the shiznit..

After installing my new stem and front SSD shocks I felt like i was riding on a totally different quad the first time out.. absolutely amazing...

Posted by: quadracer400

Hey dave400ex, I have lonestar parts like swingarm and a-arms and crap like that. If i were to get a Arens frame would my Lonestar parts Mount right up to it? So all i would have to do if i wanted to put a crf in there would be to just put the motor and radiator in??? Would I have to modify the subframe or anyhting like some conversions require?

Posted by: Dave400ex

If your LSR parts are made to fit the stock 400ex chassis without any mods, then they should bolt right up to the Arens frame. John is making this frame to accept all the stock 400ex parts. There is more you would need then just the motor and radaitor, but John will sell everything you need to mount the CRF right up. You will not need to do any modifications to this frame to mount the CRF that I know of. I think with the parts you will be able to get from John it will bolt right up.

Posted by: DirtDiggler

In an earlier thread John said he will have some kind of a kit to go from the 400ex motor to the CRF450r motor. He also said it will not require any cutting or welding.

Posted by: freeride132

jnine, i appreciate you answer all my questions..i have 1 more. when will they be out, i wanan by one this winter

Posted by: Jnine

I wish you wanted one next week!

Posted by: muff

quote:
Originally posted by Jnine
I wish you wanted one next week!

thats awesome, i cant wait to see some pics

Posted by: jamiesel

Mr Arens,

Would you tell us your preference on shocks?

BTW.

I really appreciate your interaction on the forums. It has givin me a favorable opinion of your company. I read the article at dirt wheels or where ever you won the shootout and was left with an impression that I would feel like a dummy asking hard questions from you but that thought has vanished and I hope this new project works for you!

Posted by: Jnine

ELKA, TCS, PEP, AXIS. They are all good.. Just make sure they are working and are setup for you.

Posted by: Six Six Six

quote:
Originally posted by Jnine
ELKA, TCS, PEP, AXIS.

is that in order

Posted by: Six Six Six

quote:
Originally posted by Rico
If your taller than 5"10 a +1 antivibe stem is the shiznit..

After installing my new stem and front SSD shocks I felt like i was riding on a totally different quad the first time out.. absolutely amazing...

Rico how tall are you i am thinking about getting a plus one but im not sure cause im 6" and ride Motocross, what do you think ?

Posted by: freeride132

what do you guys think of tcs? ive been looking at them more and more, is there a long wait? any problems? what do they go for?

Posted by: Six Six Six

quote:
Originally posted by freeride132
what do you guys think of tcs? ive been looking at them more and more, is there a long wait? any problems? what do they go for?

TCS are excellent shocks, I doubt that there is much of a wait and they go for around 750 for fronts, i am yet to hear of any problems or complaints about them

Posted by: Dave400ex

My brother just got his TCS shocks last night. He ended up waiting about 3 weeks or so. The shocks look very nice. I will have to see how he likes them.

Posted by: freeride132

3 weeks is no big deal thats what i had to wait on my works, so how do you guys think they compare to elka? better?

Posted by: muff

quote:
Originally posted by freeride132
3 weeks is no big deal thats what i had to wait on my works, so how do you guys think they compare to elka? better?

their like elkas...great shocks, mine are holdin up soo well

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p8ffb46d38e7616d4728a054946f2bd32/fc82b4fd.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid68/pbcbfd59b067f072a73497bbca31f9684/fbc0ecef.jpg

when next years season is over i am going to be purchasing the crf/ex arens frame...it should be so nasty

Posted by: slosh13

I got TCS '0' preload shocks all the way around. I paid $1700 for all 3. But let me tell you,that was the best investment yet...other than buying a HONDA