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250r's in modern MX
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Posted by: Darthgeese
do any pros/amatures use 250rs anymore? Are they really that outdated/slow compated to 450r's n such?
Posted by: Master LTR450
Im not to sure if any pros still use them but i do know it has nothing to do with them being slow.
Posted by: tommygunnz
up until like 2003 the big manufacturers like honda kawi etc didnt pay pro riders to race factory machines all that stoped in the early 90s so everyone was on 250R based machines but when they brought back factory sponsership it became a business move to ride the new factory 4 pokes and the 250Rs started dwindling on race tracks theres guys like bill ballence and jerimiah jones who could still win on 250R based quads but ridind these 450s pays they last made the 250R in 89 which is 20 year old technoligy compared to this high teck 450 development and it still holds up imagine if honda was putting that 450 R&D in a 250R based bike I bet it would out sell a 450R
Posted by: deathman53
it all has to do with the dollar and BS rules. Rules were changed to race in pro class. Those new rules to bring the new 450's in, nailed the coffin for the 250r's and hybrids. I don't know the rules exactly, but 250r's are allowed in 2 or 3 pro classes, there is something about stock frames in the rules. 2 pro's ran 250r in a recent tt race. One would have done alot better, but had motor issues, he couldn't go more than 3/4 throttle. He was using a stock framed 250r, it was something with the rules, he ran in pro-am class. I could be wrong on some of the details.
No, the 450r is no more hi-tech than the 250r, the motor may be(its also a time bomb with pro mods). Quad chassis hasn't moved past the 88/89 250r based. If anything a laeger narrow, walsh and roll frame design is far better than any oem can do. The 450r frame is very very similar to a 250r frame, that hi-tech is just stuff the marketers want you to believe. They had to sell their new quads, they will tell you anything. I don't know why, but 06-current 450r front end setups are worse than 250r, they push alot in corners.
Posted by: tommygunnz
why wouldnt the big names try to cut TRX250Rs out of the equation with out 250Rs in all the races they are selling a lot of units
Posted by: All250R
Evolution in technology is applied to solving a problem. If power is the problem being chased, then an engine that's smaller and has less parts is the more technologically advanced engine. If the problem is emissions and fuel consumption... well valves are better at that aren't they, and then the engine has to be made bigger and run tighter to meet the power problem adequately simply because you needed the valve train to solve your primary problem.
People don't understand technology, not because they are dumb necessarily, but because they haven't designed user products before. Magazines are entertainment, and sales brochures are marketing, but people sometimes assume they're an unbiased technical evaluation, and they're not.
Ask what problem is being solved when evaluating strength of the technology. What is more technologically advanced, a DVD or VHS player? Why?
Posted by: Derrick Adams
I would say that 250R's are pretty rare these days in MX. I raced one all this season and only ran into 3 others.
I will say though that I let two of my friends run some laps on my R and both sold their 450's to buy one. Well, one ended up with a Hybrid and the other a stock framed 250R. There is simply nothing out there that handles better than a well built 250R chassis.
I can also tell you from experience that 250Rs are still completely competitive in todays MX. Much harder to ride though. The only disadvantage that i've found is if there is deep thick mud. That sucks the power right out of the 2 stroke.
I had so much fun racing mine this year that i'm making a full run at the Nationals next season!
Posted by: tommygunnz
quote:
Originally posted by deathman53
it all has to do with the dollar and BS rules. Rules were changed to race in pro class. Those new rules to bring the new 450's in, nailed the coffin for the 250r's and hybrids. I don't know the rules exactly, but 250r's are allowed in 2 or 3 pro classes, there is something about stock frames in the rules. 2 pro's ran 250r in a recent tt race. One would have done alot better, but had motor issues, he couldn't go more than 3/4 throttle. He was using a stock framed 250r, it was something with the rules, he ran in pro-am class. I could be wrong on some of the details.
No, the 450r is no more hi-tech than the 250r, the motor may be(its also a time bomb with pro mods). Quad chassis hasn't moved past the 88/89 250r based. If anything a laeger narrow, walsh and roll frame design is far better than any oem can do. The 450r frame is very very similar to a 250r frame, that hi-tech is just stuff the marketers want you to believe. They had to sell their new quads, they will tell you anything. I don't know why, but 06-current 450r front end setups are worse than 250r, they push alot in corners.
I was referring to the engine as high tech mainly
Posted by: woodsracer144
shane hitt was racing a tt race some where in the south this summer... along with another old pro... i thikn he to 2nd over all and the motor was running on a bad head gasket and it was a 265 agaist a open mod class for tt
Posted by: tommygunnz
I wish there was pics or something
Posted by: quad janern
There is pictures of that race, someone posted them a while ago.
Posted by: tommygunnz
do u have any clue where they were posted by any chance?
Posted by: deathman53
http://www.atvriders.com/gallery/20...otos/index.html
Posted by: woodsracer144
shane has the sparks quad right?
Posted by: tommygunnz
quote:
Originally posted by deathman53
http://www.atvriders.com/gallery/20...otos/index.html
cool **** how did those 250rs fair?
Posted by: All250R
Well the 4stroke has a displacement advantage, so if the R was competitive at a 200cc disadvantage, the R did f**in exceptionally!
Posted by: John Noftsinger
back when 250r,s raced four stroke,s i think there was a 265cc limit against 4-stroke at 440cc ,but the 440,s had more torque ,and started dominating the 250r,s (not to say it wasn,t money motavated towards newer production quad) today,s 450,s would smoke a 250r on the track cause of the traction it has with the 4-stroke motor thats why they are so dominate in dirtbikes more hookup, less spinning like a 2-stroke ,4-stroke,s are the new kings of MX the 250r would be good MAYBE better in flat track,desert racing but then again 4-stroke tech is coming along with the times with efi ,and dohc motors that put out with mods(pro level) 60+ hps/35+torque now!
Posted by: woodsracer144
dude im sorry but why do you think that BRP and skidoo still runs a 2-stroke... its cheaper and if you know what your doing its cleaner and them damb things are fast as hell... i dont care what any one says but i think if you know how to ride a 2 stroke you could hold your owen... as always who ever has the most amount of money normally should win...
another thing what does hinson make a "slipper clutch" kit? i would have to geuss it make your 4 strokers feel like a 2 stroke when you go up to a corner not? i just strongly feel that the 4 strokes are way too over rated and spendy... i've found when you turn the other way you start new things...
jmo
Posted by: 8686
quote:
Originally posted by John Noftsinger
back when 250r,s raced four stroke,s i think there was a 265cc limit against 4-stroke at 440cc ,but the 440,s had more torque ,and started dominating the 250r,s (not to say it wasn,t money motavated towards newer production quad) today,s 450,s would smoke a 250r on the track cause of the traction it has with the 4-stroke motor thats why they are so dominate in dirtbikes more hookup, less spinning like a 2-stroke ,4-stroke,s are the new kings of MX the 250r would be good MAYBE better in flat track,desert racing but then again 4-stroke tech is coming along with the times with efi ,and dohc motors that put out with mods(pro level) 60+ hps/35+torque now!
If the 4 strokes were "dominating" the much smaller 2 strokes then why did a 250R 2 stroke win the pro class in the last year it was able to compete? That was in 2003, then in 2004 they went to Pro Production only. And today's 450's DO NOT "smoke" a 250R on the track. I would know first hand as I was the ONLY 250R out there at every single motocross race. My 250R was very competetive with the 4 strokes. All the latest and greatest was out there, too. Even with the huge displacement advantage I pulled a few holeshots. Yeah the 250R is a little harder to ride fast but that's part of the reason I like it. "4 strokes are the new kings of mx"? You read too many magazines.
Posted by: woodsracer144
Agreed^^^ 
Posted by: red88r
quote:
Originally posted by 8686
If the 4 strokes were "dominating" the much smaller 2 strokes then why did a 250R 2 stroke win the pro class in the last year it was able to compete? That was in 2003, then in 2004 they went to Pro Production only. And today's 450's DO NOT "smoke" a 250R on the track. I would know first hand as I was the ONLY 250R out there at every single motocross race. My 250R was very competetive with the 4 strokes. All the latest and greatest was out there, too. Even with the huge displacement advantage I pulled a few holeshots. Yeah the 250R is a little harder to ride fast but that's part of the reason I like it. "4 strokes are the new kings of mx"? You read too many magazines.
Yeah the 4 strokes are easier to ride and get more power to the ground, but it takes a man 2 hang on for 5 laps on a 250r. I have raced many mx races in many different classes and have never got smoked by a 4 stroke. I had a crf hybird pull me on the straights and then I would catch him in the corners. I eventually passed him on the last lap cuz he was so nervous with me on his tail. It is a good thing I guess for the pro class to get the factories involved but in my opinion it not like it used to be. I just wish they had more 2 stroke classes so I would'nt have to listen to all of the annoying 4 strokes on the line. Although I do like rippin a fat holeshot with my 20yr. old quad!
Posted by: Derrick Adams
Seems like I read somewhere that there were talks of opening up the 250cc (4 stroke) bike classes to allow 250cc 2 strokes.
Can you imagine if they allowed 450cc 2 stroke quads in PRO Production. No one (I repeat) NO ONE would be on a 4 stroke. 80hp machines at 100 less pounds. I could see that easily.
In all fairness though my 330R is more than capable of running with any of the new 450's. Really comes down to rider more than anything. I ran 12 MX races this season and never finished out of the top 5. I won 4 races. I even took the holeshot on a 18 quad gate. Point is, they are still more than competitive.
I will agree that they are much harder to ride though. Takes alot more rider input.
Posted by: 89rwfo
x2 ^^^^^^^^
Posted by: woodsracer144
yeah they let the 250 2 strokes run with teh 250f's this year.... im i dont know why there wasnt more 2 stokes out there... i think a 450CC 2-stoke would be hard to handle... you would have to gear that baby really low because it would be wicked fast! haha
Posted by: racerx573
In the end, it's all rider IMO..
Throw Bubba Stewart on a 125 2-stroke and he'd still probly win against 450's...
I mean come on the dude laps other pro riders, lol.. (wow that would suck being pro, and getting lapped.)
Rider preference and rider skill.
A smart, aggressive, fast rider will win no matter what they're on.
Another good thing about the 250R, is that it's a silent killer... those guys with their 100 db 4-stroke pipes will never hear ya comin, til ya pass 'em!!
It's all monkey see, monkey do these days.. just like it was back then.
I grew up on the original Huevos vids and Quatros Locos... it was all Laeger 250R's... same with at the tracks... so what did 12 year old racerx573 want? a Laeger 250R...
All the pros switched to hybrids... so next thing all the C class kids with $200,000 totor-homes are building $20,000 hybrid quads like the pro's
All these kids these days see Wienen and Wimmer out there winning on Kawies/Zukis... so they want to ride what the pros are riding...
You can race a Suzuki, KTM, or Can-Am outa the box...BUT all the amateurs and slow guys with money are still putting Walsh/Fox setups on them... WHY?
Monkey-See, Monkey-Do.
It's human nature...
"keepin' up with the Joneses"
Except when Jones was on his R, no one could keep up with him 
Posted by: woodsracer144
i agree with you about the monkey see monkey to... i would love to have one of each quad bill ballance and j jones rode and raced... esp. the sparks PV motors...
Posted by: Lasher
I have MX raced a 250R since 1999.
In the beginning it was 250R/Banshees - 250R ruled.
Then came the 400ex - 250R still ruled.
Then came the Hybrids - was close call.
Now production 450s - where is the 250R to compete?
My 89 250R was always competitive with the quads of anytime frame, it came down to rider.
This past year I got a Walsh 250R and handling wise...no quad on the track can touch it. With a Sparks motor, I am right there with any of the production quads. Some have more power, but this winter I plan on a 330pv upgrade. That should really surprise a lot of people on the track.
In talking with a lot of the "old school" people at the track, that know what a 250R is capable of...say the same thing.
NOTHING OUT TODAY CAN TOUCH THE 250R handling. NOTHING!
Power...sure the newer 450s have more punch than a stock cylinder 250R, but put a bigger motor (310, 330, 350) and forget it. I will let you know this coming season how it does.
By the way, my son raced the Walsh at the last race of the year in the Sport 15 class (400 4 stroke limit) and was able to easily pull the holeshot, even sleeping on the gate.
It is a riot to to be all over the 4 strokes butt on the track. Watching those guys pick a line and try to hold it, while I am all over the place trying to pass. I swear they get whiplash from me picking any line I want in the turns.
But kids today don't care. My son wants a 4 stroke for next season...why? Because everyone else has one, simple as that. But you have to love that $150 - 45 minute top end change for a new motor....what does it take on a 4 stroke?
Posted by: skyeryder
Let me say this first 250R is the best quad ever built, I've owned two a CT330 and CT310 they flat out haul and handle better than anything out there.
Now to my ??? will the new GasGas 300 two stroke be legal in Nationals, it said it has 50hp stock, I'd have cheer on any pro that threw a leg over that "production quad"
But for what it cost you can buy a top of the line R!!!
Posted by: FL-R
quote:
[i]
Except when Jones was on his R, no one could keep up with him [/B]
^^^^ No one could touch him.
Last night i was riding at a local track and im the only R (whats new), I have a stock ported jug, 4 year old piston and rings and PEPs. I was all over their ****, they couldnt pull me out of the corners and it was nice and muddy.
Posted by: tommygunnz
I have a buddy with a 86 TRX and he always beats the 450s drag racing and I also have a friend with a 90 LT250 and hes smoked a yfz450 and kfx450R around here why rip the trails and any field we find for fun but decide what bike is fastest only by lining them up
Posted by: Derrick Adams
I'm still waiting on more info on the new GasGas. I want to find out pricing and specs, but I would definately consider a purchase.
Posted by: woodsracer144
i hope its not 9 grand like it was before...
Posted by: tommygunnz
the gas gas looks sweet but at that price it makes me wonder if its worth it just think what can be done to a trx for that price plus trx parts will be easier to get for years to come
Posted by: skyeryder
quote:
Originally posted by tommygunnz
the gas gas looks sweet but at that price it makes me wonder if its worth it just think what can be done to a trx for that price plus trx parts will be easier to get for years to come
that was kinda my thought also, but maybe some of the other manufacturers will rethink the 2-stroke.....
Posted by: Derrick Adams
I think the only way that would happen is if the Gas Gas took off at the nationals, kind of like the Cannondales did back in the day.
If a couple pro's jumped on some new 2 strokes and started winning races I bet you would see two things.
1) People jumping on the band wagon in a hurry.
2) AMA change Pro-Production to 4 strokes only.
Posted by: tommygunnz
youre right Im sure they could win with the right riders but that might not happen.How many gas gas dealers will have that quad in the usa right on the show room floor?
Posted by: John Noftsinger
I think they should let 250rs at a regulated ccs limit race ,but to build one would cost twice what a new 450 would for one, two the vibration of the two-stroke at the end of race would fatigue rider alot more giving 4-strokes the win ,why did one of the best riders in the sport switch from 250r to z400 first was hybrid in 2000 won with it won again in 02 ,03 almost won both pro-pro-production 04,he said the 4-stroke was easier to ride with less fatigue and that Z had 50+ hps at 440cc .why did every rider then switch up as well they saw an advantage to the 4-stroke over the 2-stroke .emissions ,honda,(not making new 250r) are reasons why they aren,t racing anymore ,love to see them go head to head with 4-stroke myself would be awesome ! and if they change rules on vtwin motors it would really be some bad ***** 4-stroke,s.
Posted by: tommygunnz
quote:
Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I think they should let 250rs at a regulated ccs limit race ,but to build one would cost twice what a new 450 would for one, two the vibration of the two-stroke at the end of race would fatigue rider alot more giving 4-strokes the win ,why did one of the best riders in the sport switch from 250r to z400 first was hybrid in 2000 won with it won again in 02 ,03 almost won both pro-pro-production 04,he said the 4-stroke was easier to ride with less fatigue and that Z had 50+ hps at 440cc .why did every rider then switch up as well they saw an advantage to the 4-stroke over the 2-stroke .emissions ,honda,(not making new 250r) are reasons why they aren,t racing anymore ,love to see them go head to head with 4-stroke myself would be awesome!
are you talking about doug gust?
Posted by: woodsracer144
quote:
Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I think they should let 250rs at a regulated ccs limit race ,but to build one would cost twice what a new 450 would for one, two the vibration of the two-stroke at the end of race would fatigue rider alot more giving 4-strokes the win ,why did one of the best riders in the sport switch from 250r to z400 first was hybrid in 2000 won with it won again in 02 ,03 almost won both pro-pro-production 04,he said the 4-stroke was easier to ride with less fatigue and that Z had 50+ hps at 440cc .why did every rider then switch up as well they saw an advantage to the 4-stroke over the 2-stroke .emissions ,honda,(not making new 250r) are reasons why they aren,t racing anymore ,love to see them go head to head with 4-stroke myself would be awesome ! and if they change rules on vtwin motors it would really be some bad ***** 4-stroke,s.
im sorry but you are a dumb ***... the trx 250r has a counterblancer... its not like rm kx yz or cr 250 125 or 500 is in it with out a counterblancer... my 250r doesnt vib any more then a 4 poke. and the reason that they went to the 4 pokes is to try something new for quads... yamaha started to make a 4 stroke mx bike so why wouldnt they try it in the quad...
Posted by: tommygunnz
TRX250R KING OF ALL TIME!
Posted by: All250R
quote:
Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I think they should let 250rs at a regulated ccs limit race ,but to build one would cost twice what a new 450 would for one, two the vibration of the two-stroke at the end of race would fatigue rider alot more giving 4-strokes the win ,why did one of the best riders in the sport switch from 250r to z400 first was hybrid in 2000 won with it won again in 02 ,03 almost won both pro-pro-production 04,he said the 4-stroke was easier to ride with less fatigue and that Z had 50+ hps at 440cc .why did every rider then switch up as well they saw an advantage to the 4-stroke over the 2-stroke .emissions ,honda,(not making new 250r) are reasons why they aren,t racing anymore ,love to see them go head to head with 4-stroke myself would be awesome ! and if they change rules on vtwin motors it would really be some bad ***** 4-stroke,s.
How much does it really say about an engine that needs 440cc's to make 50hp? So what regulation on cc's is your idea? If it's not equal displacement, then what difference does it make? 4strokes need a handicap cheater to compete against a 250 2stroke so just add more cc's until people selling 4strokes get their way with a win on the MX track?
It's a fu**ing joke to even sit and think about what is more competitive when the odds aren't even stacked evenly, and you guys that don't get the punch line are part of the humor. Pound for pound the TRX250R is the best racing quad ever made. Bring 4strokes down to 250's and then lets talk about what's more competitive. Otherwise keep dreaming your way into bigger cc's until 4strokes with all their mess of extra parts come out a winner... thumb's up for 4strokes - they're the best!!! yaahhhh!!! 
Posted by: atv fan 28
racing these days its all about money. i think if a manufacturer would sponser a rider no matter what they rode, alot of them would choose the 250R over the 4 stroke! i own both, but i enjoy the 250R more!
Posted by: Black Sheep
I love these 2 vs. 4 stroke arguments.
I'm old enough to remember when the racing scene was dominated by 2 strokes and everybody complained that they wanted a competitive racing 4 stroke.
To even show how old i am I remember when 4 strokes ruled the mx world and 2 strokes were considered a "fad"
Me personally I like both but, I really enjoy beating all the big bore 250's and 500 two strokes with my basically stock 450 four stroke.
Posted by: atv fan 28
quote:
Originally posted by Black Sheep
I love these 2 vs. 4 stroke arguments.
I'm old enough to remember when the racing scene was dominated by 2 strokes and everybody complained that they wanted a competitive racing 4 stroke.
To even show how old i am I remember when 4 strokes ruled the mx world and 2 strokes were considered a "fad"
Me personally I like both but, I really enjoy beating all the big bore 250's and 500 two strokes with my basically stock 450 four stroke.
stock 450 which is 100 pounds lighter? btw you build some sick trikes!!
Posted by: Black Sheep
quote:
Originally posted by atv fan 28
stock 450 which is 100 pounds lighter? btw you build some sick trikes!!
if i was racing quads maybe but, i'm racing against other trikes 
...and thank you
Posted by: All250R
quote:
Originally posted by Black Sheep
Me personally I like both but, I really enjoy beating all the big bore 250's and 500 two strokes with my basically stock 450 four stroke.
lol!
Cool work with the trikes tho! Enjoyed your site.
Posted by: destey
4 strokes produce less hp, lots more parts, heavier
But are eco friendly. When your sport faces being banned by the liberals being eco friendly is priority # 1.
Make no mistake manufacturers are in business to make money by selling quads, they're not in business to make the best quad. Mfg's see where the law / polticics are headed and if they want to stay in business they will (well they already did) knuckle under.
Its just like the snowmobile industry. Mfg's watch the election cycle, they see the democrats win, they know what kinds of laws the dems pass. They conform ahead of time so they can tell Pelosi "see we're self policing ourselves, we're ahead of the curve. Don't need govt intervention" So the socialists will turn their big guns elsewhere (maybe towards immigration or healthcare).
If the mfgs kept cranking out 2 strokes, there'd be a bill titled "Clean Air Act" where every aspect of atv, snowmobiles, etc would be micromanaged as socialists do best.
Posted by: racerx573
quote:
Originally posted by Lasher
But you have to love that $150 - 45 minute top end change for a new motor....what does it take on a 4 stroke?
Dude I know what you mean. I don't don't even know how to change the top end on a 4-stroke... I am screwed... hahaha.
I had to do a top end swap in less than 20 minutes at race once... me and my buddies pulled it off... kinda sucks breaking it in was the holeshot/moto, lol
Puttin' pipe springs on kickin' it over rolling right into the gate!!
Posted by: Lasher
In our local racing series (NEATV) they are talking about rules limiting the switching of "race quads" to "practice quads" during the race day...and even about swapping motors.
But as racerx573 said...you can change the top end between motos without a problem on a 250R...try that with 4 stroke. Even the pro mechanics in our series have stated that repair to a 4 stroke on race day is a joke.
Posted by: tommygunnz
Im loving this thread I have to bring up the point that people say its not fair to put a high displacement 2stroke against a 4stroke but if the 4stroke is is so efficient at putting the power to the ground and the 2stroke isnt why isnt that fair? I think theyre trying to faze out all of our beloved 2stroke bikes they might be able to play the guys who wanna race with higher ccs(still less than 4stroke)but the cant stop us from tearing up the trails and smoking our buddys quads in friendly drags
Posted by: Honda 250r 001
quote:
Originally posted by tommygunnz
TRX250R KING OF ALL TIME!
i completely agree, but the 2-stroke needs to be fuel injected or they will die because of emissions
Posted by: Lasher
Another thing that I find interesting...
I read a bunch of dirt bike forums as well. And it seems that they (the bike guys) are switching back to 2 strokes.
A lot of people I have talked to, say the expense of racing a 4 stroke is getting out of hand, especially with the economy as it is now.
Sure...guys that buy quads/bikes for play riding love them but racers are getting tired of huge repair costs when racing stuff happens.
Direct injected 2 strokes would be awesome, but I have come to realize that the 2 stroke days are over.
Posted by: tommygunnz
quote:
Originally posted by Lasher
Another thing that I find interesting...
I read a bunch of dirt bike forums as well. And it seems that they (the bike guys) are switching back to 2 strokes.
A lot of people I have talked to, say the expense of racing a 4 stroke is getting out of hand, especially with the economy as it is now.
Sure...guys that buy quads/bikes for play riding love them but racers are getting tired of huge repair costs when racing stuff happens.
Direct injected 2 strokes would be awesome, but I have come to realize that the 2 stroke days are over.
these bikes will always be cool no matter what but their days as the bikes its all about might be
Posted by: All250R
quote:
Originally posted by Lasher
Direct injected 2 strokes would be awesome, but I have come to realize that the 2 stroke days are over.
Well that's a broad statement. It's up to the dominant manufacturer's what we get to buy, not technology. EPA compliant 2strokes are in EvinRude outboard motors for example. No one can say two strokes are dead who are boating. Honda and the other 3 are just so dominant in the dirt bike, street bike, and ATV market that it seems the end is on us. If company's like Husky, Aprilia, KTM, etc can make better products than Honda and market it well, the choice will be out there. Make no mistake, it's not about a lack of technology to make the 2stroke emissions compliant and able to put them on show room floors - it's the japanese manufacturers' business plans, the same business that bent the displacement rules to make them competitive against an otherwise superior machine.
Anyone still think an equal displacement 4stroke is faster? Read this: http://www.gizmag.com/go/2542/
quote:
"Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki sold thousands of 250 two-strokes based around their racing machines and many of the biggest names in motorcycle sport got their start in the 250 production racing class. In Grand Prix racing, the two-stroke quickly became unbeatable. Producing an unreliable 50bhp in the sixties, the development of the two-stroke racing motorcycle continued at breakneck speed for four decades, with the top 250s of today producing 100bhp plus.
Throughout the sixties the wail of expansion chambers slowly but surely banished the roar of four-stroke racing machinery at world championship level, at first in the smaller classes, and eventually in all classes.
...The need for harsher emission standards for road-going machinery was having an opposite effect on the two-stroke's success on the road however."
if you like the 4stroke feel, that's great. No problem. For the rest of us, 4strokes are a cockroach problem not a racing platform.
Posted by: tommygunnz
quote:
Originally posted by All250R
Well that's a broad statement. It's up to the dominant manufacturer's what we get to buy, not technology. EPA compliant 2strokes are in EvinRude outboard motors for example. No one can say two strokes are dead who are boating. Honda and the other 3 are just so dominant in the dirt bike, street bike, and ATV market that it seems the end is on us. If company's like Husky, Aprilia, KTM, etc can make better products than Honda and market it well, the choice will be out there. Make no mistake, it's not about a lack of technology to make the 2stroke emissions compliant and able to put them on show room floors - it's the japanese manufacturers' business plans, the same business that bent the displacement rules to make them competitive against an otherwise superior machine.
Anyone still think an equal displacement 4stroke is faster? Read this: http://www.gizmag.com/go/2542/
quote:
"Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki sold thousands of 250 two-strokes based around their racing machines and many of the biggest names in motorcycle sport got their start in the 250 production racing class. In Grand Prix racing, the two-stroke quickly became unbeatable. Producing an unreliable 50bhp in the sixties, the development of the two-stroke racing motorcycle continued at breakneck speed for four decades, with the top 250s of today producing 100bhp plus.
Throughout the sixties the wail of expansion chambers slowly but surely banished the roar of four-stroke racing machinery at world championship level, at first in the smaller classes, and eventually in all classes.
...The need for harsher emission standards for road-going machinery was having an opposite effect on the two-stroke's success on the road however."
if you like the 4stroke feel, that's great. No problem. For the rest of us, 4strokes are a cockroach problem not a racing platform.
GOOD STUFF
Posted by: 8686
quote:
Originally posted by Lasher
Another thing that I find interesting...
I read a bunch of dirt bike forums as well. And it seems that they (the bike guys) are switching back to 2 strokes.
A lot of people I have talked to, say the expense of racing a 4 stroke is getting out of hand, especially with the economy as it is now.
Sure...guys that buy quads/bikes for play riding love them but racers are getting tired of huge repair costs when racing stuff happens.
Direct injected 2 strokes would be awesome, but I have come to realize that the 2 stroke days are over.
The 2 stroke days are so not over! The dirt bike industry is usually a couple years ahead of the quads in everything they do. Like previously stated, the dirt bike guys are already realizing that the 4 strokes aren't worth the money to maintain and they are switching back to the 2 strokes. Especially now that the amateur AMA rules evened the playing field allowing a CR250 to race against a CRF250. It won't be long until that gets ugly for all the 2 stroke haters. Hopefully somehow the quads won't be far behind.
Posted by: red88r
quote:
Originally posted by 8686
The 2 stroke days are so not over! The dirt bike industry is usually a couple years ahead of the quads in everything they do. Like previously stated, the dirt bike guys are already realizing that the 4 strokes aren't worth the money to maintain and they are switching back to the 2 strokes. Especially now that the amateur AMA rules evened the playing field allowing a CR250 to race against a CRF250. It won't be long until that gets ugly for all the 2 stroke haters. Hopefully somehow the quads won't be far behind.
I heard the only reason the AMA is allowing the 2 srokes to run is to rid all the manufactures of their left over bikes. Don't know if this is true or not-just what I heard. I only seen like one at Millville this year.
Posted by: racerx573
quote:
Originally posted by Lasher
In our local racing series (NEATV) they are talking about rules limiting the switching of "race quads" to "practice quads" during the race day...and even about swapping motors.
But as racerx573 said...you can change the top end between motos without a problem on a 250R...try that with 4 stroke. Even the pro mechanics in our series have stated that repair to a 4 stroke on race day is a joke.
That would suck for motor swaps.. esp if you threw a rod or tranny...
BUT, a suggestion you could bring up is...
If the motor is to be swapped, it must be tech inspected first and the refs notified prior. This way there can be no argument, that the displacement of the motor to be swapped in should be equal to or less than the motor it is replacing.
Posted by: All250R
quote:
Originally posted by racerx573
That would suck for motor swaps.. esp if you threw a rod or tranny...
BUT, a suggestion you could bring up is...
If the motor is to be swapped, it must be tech inspected first and the refs notified prior. This way there can be no argument, that the displacement of the motor to be swapped in should be equal to or less than the motor it is replacing.
It's funny to hear they're very particular about checking the displacement of the engine.
Posted by: Lasher
quote:
Originally posted by 8686
Especially now that the amateur AMA rules evened the playing field allowing a CR250 to race against a CRF250.
While I have not confirmed this with the officials at NEATV...but I heard they will allow even displacement in their classes.
So you can run up to a 450 2 stroke against those 4 pukes...
Posted by: Lasher
quote:
Originally posted by racerx573
That would suck for motor swaps.. esp if you threw a rod or tranny...
BUT, a suggestion you could bring up is...
If the motor is to be swapped, it must be tech inspected first and the refs notified prior. This way there can be no argument, that the displacement of the motor to be swapped in should be equal to or less than the motor it is replacing.
They were having a big discussion on their website, but they took down the posts because it was going no where fast.
I do know that they are limiting the pro class to 450cc and something about the motor matching the frame numbers. The discussion got a little ugly when they talked about changes on race day due to break downs.
NEATV is a very family type series (with hard core racing) and they are trying to keep it that way. So I have faith that they will make the right call on the rules for next year.
But I heard that all the pros (in national series I think) were running big bore motors. And I think the AMA is limiting the national series to 450cc limits as well, but I might be wrong.
Posted by: D Bergstrom
You guys know the reason two strokes are no longer made in great numbers? It is because of us, the consumer, we are not buying them! The EPA did ban them, but it does not ban “competition only” machines. So, yes the banshee is gone, but that is why KTM, Yamaha, etc. can still produce 2 stroke bikes, they are for “competition use” only. There is no conspiracy, the other bike makers got rid of them for one reason, they could not sell them, the majority of riders want a four stroke, simple as that. (Alright, disclaimer time, this all relates to bikes, as other then the Banshee, two stroke quads have not been produced in a very long time.) I really do not see manufacturers putting money into two strokes again, (especially in this current economy) I really do not think they would sell. I know I see a lot of “racers want two strokes” in this thread. Well guess what, how many bikes/quads get sold for racing? A very small number actually get raced, most are used by the recreational riders. Guess what, they want something easier to ride, I doubt many of them would buy a two stroke. So again, how many two strokes would manufacturers actually sell?
I have a 250R that I really enjoy riding, but guess what, I race my four strokes. Why? They are so much easier to ride! I can ride the same pace for longer with the four stroke. The only place my 250R has a advantage is the tight twisty stuff, but again, only if I am fresh. Once fatigue sets in, that’s it, give me the four stroke back.
On to displacement. Seems everyone thinks the 450's have an advantage over a 250 two stroke. This is probably true, and I believe a two stroke should be allowed more displacement to compete against a 450. Do I think both should be equal? NO! My 250R has a 330 kit, and it smokes my 450's. Lets say you could have equal displacement. You really think a racer could hold on to a 450cc two stroke and be competitive for the entire race? No way, comes back to easier to ride again.
So, these are just my views on the entire two stroke vs four stroke debate. I really do like my 250R, but for racing, I can not beat my four strokes.
Doug
EDIT:
I guess I should actually answer the original question, could a 250 be competitive in modern MX? YES! Even at the 250 displacement. Remember, it is not who has the fastest quad, it is the best rider. The reason a certain rider wins does not have much to do with what bike he rides, it has more to do with rider skill. I remember a few years ago, one of the dirt bike mags did a story. Basically they took an amateur MX rider and put him on a 450 bike, then put pro rider Ryan Hughes on a 450 bike, and had them race one lap around a MX track. Ryan smoked him. They then put Ryan on a 125, and had them race again. Ryan still beat him. Then Ryan was on an 80, guess what, he still beat him! Just goes to show that rider ability has a lot more to do with it then what bike you ride. Granted, pros racing pros is a little different, but still, the best rider is going to win, not the best bike in most cases.
Posted by: woodsracer144
um.. epa is part of it but then you tell me epa is sayin that every ski doo sled is being raced in some sort!
Posted by: Derrick Adams
I'm pretty sure if I had a 450cc 2 stroke quad that I could tune the power to be more than ridable for MX and be just as easy to ride as a 4 stroke. I'm sure the power delivery would be a bit harsher but probably not as much as you would think. My 330 has a very smooth power delivery.The light weight makes all the difference, for me, on the track.
I was just reading a thread this morning where someone is making new cases for the CR500 to accept a counter balancer. When those are done, look for a TRX500R to be sitting in my garage!
Posted by: D Bergstrom
quote:
Originally posted by Derrick Adams
I'm pretty sure if I had a 450cc 2 stroke quad that I could tune the power to be more than ridable for MX and be just as easy to ride as a 4 stroke. I'm sure the power delivery would be a bit harsher but probably not as much as you would think. My 330 has a very smooth power delivery.The light weight makes all the difference, for me, on the track.
I actually used to own a CR500 and a CRF450. I put a bottom end pipe on the 500, along with a flywheel weight to tune it some, it still did not compare to the CRF as far as wearing me out. I could ride my CRF all day, after half a day on the 500 I was beat. I never did touch the motor in the 500, so I am sure some porting would have helped some, but no matter what, that bike would have still been a handfull. I remember going to the dunes once and actually having to peal my right hand off the throttle it was cramped up so much! Damn do I miss that 500!
I do agree with you about the weight. I can notice the difference between my 250R and 450R, I think that is what the differnce really is in the tight twisty stuff.
Doug
Posted by: atvmxr
its no problem for me to have 500cc smoker out on the MX track
Posted by: All250R
quote:
Originally posted by Derrick Adams
I'm pretty sure if I had a 450cc 2 stroke quad that I could tune the power to be more than ridable for MX and be just as easy to ride as a 4 stroke. I'm sure the power delivery would be a bit harsher but probably not as much as you would think. My 330 has a very smooth power delivery.The light weight makes all the difference, for me, on the track.
I was just reading a thread this morning where someone is making new cases for the CR500 to accept a counter balancer. When those are done, look for a TRX500R to be sitting in my garage!
Absolutely. a 450cc 2stroke would have so much displacement it could be tuned to outmatch most every characteristic of a 450cc 4stroke. One 330 is not a comparison of how a 450cc tuned by the amazing talent at Honda for MX specifically against 4strokes would compete.
I appreciate Bergstrom's view, but you're underestimating what a 2stroke designed to slaughter a 4stroke of equal displacement would do. The big 4 are not making 4strokes because no one wants a 2stroke. People are buying 4strokes because that's what they wanted to sell. It's purely naive conclusion to think otherwise. It's not a coincidence that their product line changed along side with EPA benchmarks mandated for them to sell products in the US/California. There is a cause effect relationship there and it has nothing to do with 2strokes not performing well enough on a race track. Honda and the like needed a replacement for the 250cc two stroke and the only way they could make one that would make people accept a 4stroke as a race bike was to make it larger and on par with a nascar engine in a single cylinder version. They still sell 400ex's with a reliable XR engine to consider buying in case you thought a 450cc race engine is a reliable ride.
By the way, fine by them that they're more expensive in parts. The manufacturers sell bikes to get you to buy parts, not to sell you a bike. When you buy a printer from HP for $70 that has all these parts and stuff it does, they're not making a profit - they make the profit when you need ink for that whizbang do it all printer.
Do you really think Honda is not capable of understanding how to make a product that people will or won't buy? Do you not also think they could make a 2stroke that would stomp a 4stroke, when they, Honda themselves make a GP 250cc 2strokes making almost 100hp? Do you also not wonder why they don't want 250cc strokes to compete against their 250 4strokes that they want to sell you? Really, that doesn't strike you as an odd coincidence? 2strokes aren't good racing engines after all right?
To illustrate using 3rd party information, I posted a link and EVEN pulled quotes to make it easier to read on how 2strokes killed off 4strokes in a battle of pure competition cc per cc. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact demonstrated by history that if 4strokes aren't given a handicap the product line favors the two stroke. But don't take my/our word for it. Open up Google. Is the product landscape between 4strokes and 2strokes still not crystal clear?? If not, put yourselves on a mailing list. I've got some really expensive products plastered in banners, and in magazines to sell just to you. Actually all I'd have to do is find all the people that think that a 2stroke engine is outdated technology. lol
Posted by: Mrs. SFRacing
quote:
Originally posted by Black Sheep
if i was racing quads maybe but, i'm racing against other trikes
...and thank you
How is the rear shock treating you>>>>sf
Posted by: tommygunnz
a few months back in dirtwheels they said they were gonna do a shootout that consists of a TRX450R vs a eddie sanders TRX250R and it didnt come out so I actually contacted dirtwheels and they said its not worth it the 250 is king! ok I was joking about that but they said its taking longer than expected and it should be in a early 2010 issue I cant wait Ill pick that issue up but as of the past few years I only skim through at the news stand.TRX450 vs eddie sanders 250 I cant wiat!
Posted by: All250R
quote:
Originally posted by tommygunnz
a few months back in dirtwheels they said they were gonna do a shootout that consists of a TRX450R vs a eddie sanders TRX250R and it didnt come out so I actually contacted dirtwheels and they said its not worth it the 250 is king! ok I was joking about that but they said its taking longer than expected and it should be in a early 2010 issue I cant wait Ill pick that issue up but as of the past few years I only skim through at the news stand.TRX450 vs eddie sanders 250 I cant wiat!
Guys... come on... Who pays more for advertising, Honda, et. al., or ESR? For sure I'm speculating here, but I think that might have been a mistake on ESR's part if they are volunteering for the test. If Honda is involved on some level, the ESR won't be the winner is where I'd put my money. Dirt Wheels as a company wants to make money from sponsors. They are NOT a scientific journal comparing engineering effort. Come on guys think for a minute.
Posted by: tommygunnz
quote:
Originally posted by All250R
Guys... come on... Who pays more for advertising, Honda, et. al., or ESR? For sure I'm speculating here, but I think that might have been a mistake on ESR's part if they are volunteering for the test. If Honda is involved on some level, the ESR won't be the winner is where I'd put my money. Dirt Wheels as a company wants to make money from sponsors. They are NOT a scientific journal comparing engineering effort. Come on guys think for a minute.
Im just excited to see a 250R in a shootout in a mag again I think its impossible for the 450R to own the 250 all out.The 250 should do well we'll have to see though,I wonder if theyre gonna put the new gas gas 300 2stroke against the 450s.You have good points but Im glad to see a mag put a 250 in a shootout especially a eddie sanders TRX
Posted by: Derrick Adams
I agree. I think the 450 will win only out of politics. I read an article awhile back in Dirtwheels where the writer was comparing his old MX 250R to his new MX 450R. He said that his 450 handled better. I don't think I believe that. He may have thought that in his mind to justify spending $10,000 sitting up his new quad.
I have had more than one person ride my 250R and choose to replace their 450R because of handling. The 250R chassis is still to date the best handling chassis ever built. I think the YFZ is close. If they ever got smart and added more rake to the front of their frame, they would have a winner.
Posted by: 88-310r
The big manufacturers is a monkey see monkey do world. Yamaha introduced a 450 and people bought it. Then, they all brought out a 450. It is all about money to them. They could care less about the 20 year old 250R.
Posted by: tommygunnz
You said it best the big companies knew how good sales could get by bringing ATV sponsorship Back and paying to race the 450s.not that it has anything to do with this but how sweet would it be if a lot of the parts for the 450 were designed to be interchanged with the older 2stroke racers! Just thinking even though discontinued models don't matter once they've made their cash quote:
Originally posted by 88-310r
The big manufacturers is a monkey see monkey do world. Yamaha introduced a 450 and people bought it. Then, they all brought out a 450. It is all about money to them. They could care less about the 20 year old 250R.
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