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Cracked case
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Posted by: comander420

So I looked on the back of the engine near between the sprocket and rear mount and there is a hairline crack. Has anyone else had this happen and what did you do to fix it, buy a new case or tig weld it?

Posted by: jjames/jlawson

We have a motor for sale ???? Cheap......
Thanks
Jackie

Posted by: draygarcia

how cheap is cheap

Posted by: ZX11

I know the cases can be had online from OEM suppliers for $540. That gets you both sides. I didn't see just the right side listed. The problem is getting the 2010 versions which are not supposed to crack.

I checked around since I didn't get the long term warrantee for my 08. Post how you wind up fixing the problem.

Posted by: TNT

Post a PIC of it I'll tell you how to fix it if you want. I just need to see the exact area not a real close up of the cracks.

Posted by: BCS Performance

Well unfortunately this is a problem that the DS does have. There is a lot of flex in the chassis in the back down by the pivot area which causes a little stress in this area. There is a fix that is coming that will cure this problem right now. As for now what everyone in the New England area has been doing is putting a couple of layers of JB weld on the case. Now I know this sounds crazy and like a hack but believe me this will get you buy until the fix is available. We have been testing a couple of different things to cure the problem and have been quite successful. Now as far as JB weld goes you will be fine for as long as you own the machine with just that. Like I said this will get you by without hurting anything until the fix is available. You would not want to buy new cases and have the same exact thing happen.

If you are looking to buy cases though, we do have them in stock.

Posted by: blaster99

mine cracked, I put some jb weld on it to just get me through a weekend... this was in august, and they case is fine. If you look at were its cracking, even if it does crack all the way through, the swing arm is going to stay on the quad, so the jb weld is really just preventing and oil leak.

Posted by: TNT

Best way to fix this is shotpeening with a ball peen hammer lightly, after surface grinding the area. This is what you do for gouges in metal too to keep them from cracking. Anyone cares to know why if so read further.....

See hairline cracks occur from fatigue on the surface in tension (pulling apart). When you shotpeen a concave in the surface it goes into compression on the inside of the hole and tension internally, the compression instead of tension on the surface keeps the tension away that started the crack to begin with. The internal tension created by the shot peen deep in the part is not a problem since cracks don’t start internally. The grinding for deeper cracks will cold work the metal and strengthen it prior to shotpeening. .

Sorry JB weld won’t cut the mustard!

Posted by: comander420

would tig welding it work? Welds are stronger than the base material.

Posted by: TNT

quote:
Originally posted by comander420
would tig welding it work? Welds are stronger than the base material.

Stronger only at the weld but you put a heat cycle around the weld that weakens the base metal. Again, shot peen the weld and surrounding area to relieve internal stress and your good to go!

Posted by: ZX11

So there is a lot of flex in a pyramid aluminum frame? haha. I guess the intro videos from can-am were off base.

does the JB weld help the area before it cracks? Mine hasn't cracked yet but the postings are indicating that it will.

I thought the 2010 cases were the solution. But now it sounds like they will crack also.

Posted by: comander420

look real hard, mine just looked like a casting mark but when I look real close I can see it is a crack. Mine cracked with less than 8 hours on the quad.

TNT when you say peen with a hammer are you saying just tap the area with a ball peen hammer and cold work it? I'm just afraid to knock a hole in the case.

This winter I think I might just have a buddy lay some welds around that area

Posted by: TNT

JB weld will do absolutely nothing in the case of bonding surface cracks due to high levels of surface tension. Might make it worse.

ZX11 - The pyramid extruded AL cross section is very strong compared to castings and weldments other quads use; doubt you see many cracks in those areas that’s not the issue. All frames flex according to the Modulus of Elasticity of the metals used. It’s VERY difficult determining the overall load case on the quad, often times when you place a strong section in the frame assy it can cause problems in other locations. As much time as is spent determining loads from test data, stress-strain gages and computerized NASTRAN models, still the loads that were used in the model will need to be developed further from all the field testing and different riders/tracks.

To do this thoroughly, you might wonder, would require hiring 100’s of different riders putting them on 100’s of different tracts to get the loads model you design to correct. As you might guess the cost to do that in pre-design would be too great to the end user so you release the design to the public as most quad frames are, and let the after-market industry handle it which BCS is and has, incorporate the squawks at the next OEM design change…it’s done in automotive, aircraft(to a less degree), most industries. Not everyone will experience the issue, just depends again on many factors. 2010 frame design we hope will address the load dump into the engine.

Commander - Don’t beat the thing to death lol; all you want is some minor surface indentations. Yes! To cold work and put the surface in compression! A layer of JB weld once the cracks are closed and in compression might not hurt to hold down the tension, flatten it out and make it look nicer cosmetically.

Posted by: blaster99

quote:
Originally posted by TNT
[B]JB weld will do absolutely nothing in the case of bonding surface cracks due to high levels of surface tension. Might make it worse.

If you read my post, I said the reason for JB weld was not to keep the cases together, it was to stop the oil leak caused by the crack.

Posted by: TNT

quote:
Originally posted by blaster99
If you read my post, I said the reason for JB weld was not to keep the cases together, it was to stop the oil leak caused by the crack.

It won't last and one things for sure your cracks will grow, it cant take the pressure. You'd still be better off shot peening to close the gaps then put a layer of an epoxy based resin that takes compression better.

Theres some pretty strong aircraft grade sealants on the internet that do a much better job than JB weld at sealing if thats all your worried about. This stuff we use is incredible strong. I'll look at the spec when I get there later and post incase you all and BCS ever find a need. I just used a thin layer to bond in some shim that mated two big commercial aircraft barrels and it held up, about 10,000 psi. It's an air sealant too. Crazy glue I tell ya!

But yeah I will scarp any aircraft part that has a crack even a toilet paper holder, but can shot peen gouges just to give you an idea and I know this is not aircraft but a crack is crack once it starts it's not if but when it will open up all the way.

Posted by: ZX11

So yesterday my case was fine in that area. Today I have a crack in that area. It isn't leaking but I can't tell how far down it goes. It is only a month old so I will be taking it to the dealer for some new cases. I wonder if I should bother with the 5 hour oil change, haha?

Really?!! Can-am built this problem into their 08's and they still do not have engine cases available that won't crack?

Posted by: TNT

Well I looked at the aircraft adhesive I was talking about above and it can only take 250 deg F. However the company is below we get it from and they have some high temp flexable adhesives that are good to 400 and can take 350 psi tension.

All I know is the P/S 890 we use is flexable, super strong, and is non-corrosive.

One could call this company which I think I will since we have some hair line cracks on a YAM leaking oil that are getting worse and see what they recommend.

http://corporateportal.ppg.com/NA/A...lants_Products/

Posted by: Ex_Rider43

Wait for the 2010 update kit you will have everything you need to keep going without any problems. it might be available right now i am not sure.

Posted by: X400EX

2010 update kit? I guess new cases and what else?

Mine started leaking oil too..

Posted by: ZX11

Yeah, tell us more about the kit.

I got to get this documented while I still have warrantee time left. I only have the standard 6 month warrantee with 5 months remaining. After getting it documented, I can wait for the kit as long as it doesn't leak oil or I can stop the leak with an epoxy.

BRP better get this right. I only bought this to tide me over until I can get a seadoo RXT 255hp next year. If I can't trust a 45hp rotax engine to stay together on land, I won't trust a 255hp supercharged rotax to stay together offshore. Hmm, turbo honda watercraft are cheap.

Posted by: Blizzard24

Are the updated cases having the same issues?

My 08 had a crack in the case and Can Am replaced the cases w the 2010 cases saying they have seen problems w the 08 cases and revised them.

I just took a look at Can Ams parts list on theor website and the 08 cases have different model numbers than the 09 cases, 10' isnt listed yet.

08 Case part #- 420685081
09 Case part #- 420685086

is anyone w an 09 or 10 seeing cracked cases? Since mine was replaced, I have had no issues (knock on wood)

Posted by: kellymi

I haven't had a chance to look at my 09 yet, and I wont be able to for a couple of weeks. All I know is that it isn't leaking oil. I really hope the 09 cases don't have the same problem.

Posted by: ZX11

quote:
Originally posted by Blizzard24
Are the updated cases having the same issues?

My 08 had a crack in the case and Can Am replaced the cases w the 2010 cases saying they have seen problems w the 08 cases and revised them.

How can they say they are 2010 cases if the part number doesn't seperate them from 2009's? A revision to fix the problem sounds great.

Hopefully Kelly's DS450 was built late in the year. I figure the early builds would have not had time to update parts from 08 lessons before they were assembled.

I wonder if the aluminum rim repair guys can fix the old case after can-am gets me new cases. Do they keep the cracked ones?

Posted by: TNT

2009 will be the same part # for 2010 if it fixed the prob, 2008 part number is the bad one. For 09 owners it will be the engine # M...... when the change took effect, Since there are no bullitins we have no way of knowing when this got implemented on the line. I guess look at a 08 vs your 09 in the area. There are or were two down the street maybe I'll go look tomorrow.

Posted by: TNT

Cr## I forgot we got 08 cases on a 09 from when we blew a rod out the case. Thanks for the great news guys!

I'm going down to the dealer to see one tomorrow.

Just got the motor back together today too.......Nice!

Ill figure this out.....

Posted by: Blizzard24

Terry, I am just going by what the dealer had told me, it was a while ago so they may have said 2009-2010 cases when they told me what Can Am had done to fix the problem.

Posted by: TNT

quote:
Originally posted by kellymi
I haven't had a chance to look at my 09 yet, and I wont be able to for a couple of weeks. All I know is that it isn't leaking oil. I really hope the 09 cases don't have the same problem.

Might be a good idea for those that have not crack to build up the area with some JB weld or Permatex has a good one with good tensile thermal properties.

JB weld
Tensile Strength: 3960
Adhesion: 1800
Flex Strength: 7320
Tensile Lap Shear: 1040
Shrinkage: 0.0%
Resistant to: 500° F

Permatex: http://www.permatex.com/documents/t...otive/26346.pdf Tensile 4250, to 500F

Both at Advance Auto. Shotpeen a little first.

Posted by: ds450xracer

TNT can you explain to me what shot peening the area is, i have a crack on my case but it is not all the way through yet and i would like to keep it that way
thanks

Posted by: TNT

Sure! you get a ball peen hammer you know the one with a round end on one side and LIGHTLY tap the area. What that does is closes the crack puts a dome on the surface in compression and you cold work the surface which makes it stronger.

Here I did a quick drawing of what your trying to accomplish. This is an exploded section view of the engine by the crack.

In tight coners you may need some other tool like an auto-body hammer or any mandrel with a small dome on it. Afterward put some JB or Permatex to keep it in compression and keep the crack from growing or starting we hope!

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/ShotPeen.jpg

Posted by: ds450xracer

ok that helps me out alot, thank you very much and hopefully it will keep me from having to buy new cases

Posted by: ZX11

BRP has decided not to change my cases until they start leaking oil. The dealer sent them pictures. The crack is very minor now. It doesn't extend down below the swingarm pivot. I am ok with that and will ride it until it becomes a problem. My warrantee runs out in 4 months ( it was the standard 6 month) and I wanted it documented as happening at the 5 hour mark. Is it normal for them to wait until it leaks? It is not like the crack will fix or stablize itself.

Is there any upgrade parts I should add when when they do finally tear down the motor to fix the cases? What is the oil nozzle?

Posted by: Blizzard24

Change out the shift pawls to the updated part numbers, clutch update it if hasnt been done but thats about it.

Posted by: TNT

The oil squirter is #9. Some have been cracking it. Would be a good idea to epoxy it in with permatex engine or last I heard BCS was working on a better one. If it breaks your crank gears are gunna grind and you'll need a couple hundred just in parts maybe more.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Nozzle.gif

Posted by: X400EX

TNT, I'm gonna rebuild my DS this winter and check out my oil squirter. I wonder if you would have a few minutes to make a little "howto" on that... Just to make sure I do it the good way when I'll be there!

Also, if you know anything else good to verify... I'd appreciate a lot to know!

Thanks for your time.

John

Posted by: TNT

I wasn't there when the builder did it but it's just a matter of using a metal bond adhesive like permatex engine, scuff the mating surfaces up with scotch brite clean w/rubbing alcohol build up around it a little and the mating surface with glue and you'll be good to go. Its what we do in aircraft when we "fay surface and edge seal" parts in place.

Here's the deal talk to motoworks they never see them fail think it has to do with mechanics hitting them. Talk to BCS they have seen a few. My put bond it to be safe if it fails big bucks! Theres really nothing that hits them, the piston skirt does not unless it's a long one maybe....Our big bore doesn't so maybe motoworks is right someone hit it cracked it.....

Only other thing Motoworks brougt to our attention is the cam lobe @ TDC timing needs to be checked.....you may give them more call I was not there to fully see how our builder did it.

Other than that I'm putting some permatex on that area that has been cracking by the sproket and swing arm bolt and doing some shot peening first just to be safe.

Hope that helps and sorry I did not respond sooner it's been a nerve racking day racing.

Posted by: X400EX

quote:
Originally posted by TNT
I wasn't there when the builder did it but it's just a matter of using a metal bond adhesive like permatex engine, scuff the mating surfaces up with scotch brite clean w/rubbing alcohol build up around it a little and the mating surface with glue and you'll be good to go. Its what we do in aircraft when we "fay surface and edge seal" parts in place.

Here's the deal talk to motoworks they never see them fail think it has to do with mechanics hitting them. Talk to BCS they have seen a few. My put bond it to be safe if it fails big bucks! Theres really nothing that hits them, the piston skirt does not unless it's a long one maybe....Our big bore doesn't so maybe motoworks is right someone hit it cracked it.....

Only other thing Motoworks brougt to our attention is the cam lobe @ TDC timing needs to be checked.....you may give them more call I was not there to fully see how our builder did it.

Other than that I'm putting some permatex on that area that has been cracking by the sproket and swing arm bolt and doing some shot peening first just to be safe.

Hope that helps and sorry I did not respond sooner it's been a nerve racking day racing.

Thanks Terry, you're always a great help!

Posted by: joedirt

I was "shot peening" the crack on a friends quad and a chunk of the case broke out. Anyone know a good welder?

Posted by: TNT

quote:
Originally posted by joedirt
I was "shot peening" the crack on a friends quad and a chunk of the case broke out. Anyone know a good welder?

That was more than a surface crack.

Like I said it's more for gouges. DON'T BEAT ON A DEEP CRACK! I said all your trying to do is put the SURFACE in compression do it LIGHTLY!

Hope you can weld that allright! Anyway you look at though like I said once the crack has started it's not if it's when it will open up. We scrap aircraft parts that are cracked...New cases are best! A weld may not hold either. Just a bad design!

Posted by: comander420

That is what I was afraid of, the case breaking. I think I'll just start with the welding and see what that gets me.

Posted by: TNT

We'll have to see if the 2010 cases fixed this, looked like to me from the photo the location was a high load area, how the new aluminum cases will take it is TBD.

Back to the crack if it looks like it's any more than .030 deep don't shot peen it just put some Devcon on it our engine builder says it super strong has been using it on engines and it's better than JB weld.

http://www.itw-devcon.co.uk/index.p...on_clear_epoxy/

He processes about 10 engines a day so I'll trust him and try it but we don't have a crack yet! Knock on wood.

Posted by: TNT

Call JSR John Stallworth he's been building quad engines that past 25 years....I think he said Devcon is what he uses and it works great! He can get ya some too...316-733-1936

Posted by: TNT

http://www.nolansupply.com/bysubcat...alse&specs=True

Posted by: TNT

Heres the shot peening we use on aircraft for gouges and surface cracks, to keep them from growing into larger cracks.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...s6EVs6E666666--

It's a little involved..look at the photo's see the flap you put in your drill motor like a drill and slap the surface of the case with it. It has tungstun carbide beads that slap the metal and put it in compression like I told you. We do this after grinding goughes/cracks to get rid of surface stresses that can cause cracks and increase the fatigue life.

You really need someone that knows what they are doing to get this right. Aircraft mechanics have to be certified. You have to have the right drill speed, right flap, depends on what the crack or gouge depth is. Not sure if there are local shops in your area that can do this, but it may be less costly than new cases....I don't know.

I thought the very skilled could simulate this by taping lightly with a ball peen hammer to some degree then bond over it but since someone broke some case off bad idea!

We were doing some of this tonight and can take the flap to our skin it's that light.

Anyhow check out some of the photos, the surface you get it's kinda interesting if your into this sorta stuff. It be good on welds too if you had the tools.

Just buying the flap 3M recommends based on your crack, if you can get your drill speed right which is the most important thing might do it. We check our drill speed with a RPM tach. 3M can probably advise on that.

Sorry if I mis-lead anyone.