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The 250R Club
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Posted by: Nahum
I joined the 250R club today! This is my new ride ... Up to now I was riding a fully built Houser Z440. The 250R is a totally unknown territory to me. The only thing I know is that I have to do a rebuild ...
The previous owner told me that this frame is a "Philips"-Frame!? Never heard of that. I searched this forum but I couldn´t find anything about a "Philips"-Frame??????
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2876/kiste47.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9831/kiste48.jpg
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/112/kiste49.jpg
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9369/kiste52.jpg
Posted by: thedeatons
I like white frames.
Welcome to the club. You won't miss the valve train rebuilds or the extra weight.
James
Posted by: deathman53
It doesn't look too bad, I see you don't have a case saver, get one before you break the cases and maybe a more knarly set of pegs would be nice. Its easy to do, get a manual, torque wrench, torque adapter(12mm and 14mm, from motion pro), gaskets and new piston to the next overbore size(if you need a new bore) or set of rings. I find myself always riding my 250r. I rode my hybrid today and it didn't get me excited as the r does.
Posted by: 05LSR250R
Nice R for a first timer! Congrats! Wow....havent heard the name Phillips in coons age! Are you located overseas or in the states?
Posted by: woodsracer144
that is one weird old school quad... have any more pics?
Posted by: Nahum
Yeah I´m from overseas (Europe). I searched the whole night and finally found Christophe´s QOTM
http://www.atvriders.com/qotm/quado...x-250r-atv.html
Christophe´s frame:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3861/christophesframe.jpg
His frame nearly looks the same as mine. If noone ever heard the name "Phillips"-Frame I think a Phillips-Frame doesn´t exist. This must also be a Lonestar Pro-Peg frame!?
The only difference are the nerfbar mountings. I´m confused ...
I got this few photos from the previous owner when he rebuilt the 250R.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4034/frame1.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2682/frame2o.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5892/frame3.jpg
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/85/frame4n.jpg
Can someone definitely tell me what kind of frame I have?
If you look at my frame I have some gussets done near the radiator mounts.
Moreover I can tell that I have Leagers a-arms and a Leagers swingarm and an LSR excalibar axle ...
Posted by: 800screws
phillips did make frames...actually whole quads...i have a few articles in old dirt wheels where they built whole race quads with ktm 550 2 strokes, rotaxs 250 2 strokes.....
they made the entire quad, except like plastic and a few other odds and ends...
and they were based overseas.
Posted by: leager-n-ky
Yes Phillips made some very nice quads, I think I remember them and Duncan Racing teaming together for the big 12 hour race in France (i'm not going to try and spell it). Yes they were a European company.
Posted by: headache
Nice quad. I think your going to be glad you switched to a "R"
Posted by: Nahum
quote:
phillips did make frames...actually whole quads...i have a few articles in old dirt wheels where they built whole race quads with ktm 550 2 strokes, rotaxs 250 2 strokes..... they made the entire quad, except like plastic and a few other odds and ends...
quote:
Yes Phillips made some very nice quads, I think I remember them and Duncan Racing teaming together for the big 12 hour race in France (i'm not going to try and spell it). Yes they were a European company.
This is interesting ... Thank you for that information!
I searched for some new nerfbars but as it seems this will be a first problem. You don´t get nerfsbars today that bolt up right to that frame ... 
And I would need new plastics. There are so many spots that are broken. I searched this forum and it seems as if some fullbore will be fine.
Posted by: leager-n-ky
I have some AC racing Pro peg nerf's that I took off my Laeger, Give me the measurments between each mount center to center.
Posted by: Nahum
@leager-n-ky
Thanks for your help. I will post the measurements next weekend cause I have to leave home in a few hours to go to work. During the whole week, I´m not at home due to my work ...
Moreover I found out that the builder of that frame (Phillips) was a company based in England but unfortunately doesn´t exist any longer.
Posted by: 05LSR250R
quote:
Originally posted by leager-n-ky
Yes Phillips made some very nice quads, I think I remember them and Duncan Racing teaming together for the big 12 hour race in France (i'm not going to try and spell it). Yes they were a European company.
Yep! Hes right! They aleays teamed up with Duncan for those races back in the day! They also had many entries that were either Phillips quads or were prepped by Phillips! Big name overseas! Or at least they were! Havent heard much about them in a long time! I'd say you have quite a rare chassiss sittin right there! I doubt theres any over here in the states!
Posted by: Nahum
Maybe "800screws" can post a scan of that Dirt Wheels issue that deals with the Phillips quads ...
Posted by: 05LSR250R
I might have those issues also! I'll have to check on Monday! Steppin out to go see the Mayhem Fest here in a minute! Im sure I got them in a box in the attic! If I find anything on them I will scan and post the articles!
Posted by: woodsracer144
quote:
Originally posted by Nahum
Maybe "800screws" can post a scan of that Dirt Wheels issue that deals with the Phillips quads ...
you took the words right out of my mouth!
Posted by: quad janern
quote:
Originally posted by 800screws
phillips did make frames...actually whole quads...i have a few articles in old dirt wheels where they built whole race quads with ktm 550 2 strokes, rotaxs 250 2 strokes.....
they made the entire quad, except like plastic and a few other odds and ends...
and they were based overseas.
Wow, 550cc 2 stroke you say ?
That must be a fast machine 
Posted by: deathman53
I rode a 490 and holy cow it was fast, tons of torque too. I could just imagine a 550!! If its a dirtbike motor w/o counter balancer, it would rattle alot. Atk still makes a 700cc 2 stroke, that has got to be alot to ride. I seen a guy on a cr500 climb some monster hills and he did them w/o going beyond 1/2 throttle.
Posted by: quad janern
Yes im 100% sure that the engine is from a ktm dirtbike. Ktm 550 M/XC
http://gaspipe.smugmug.com/photos/403052429_XpCsi-S.jpg
and im pretty sure it does not have a counter balancer.
Yep, the new ATK big bores are cool =D
I read somewhere where they stated that the ATK 620cc was more violent than the 700, even when the 700 has more hp.
Posted by: quad janern
I actually found a video of a 250R with KTM 550 engine in it.
Too bad he dont show us some action of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uh5...feature=related
Posted by: quad janern
That quad is actually a Philips i think. Look at the seat cover.
Posted by: rockingkfarms
The quad in the youtube video is a Phillips. I remember these, but details are sketchy. I have the Dirtwheels that these were featured in and will get back with better details. And yes, they Raced at Pont de Veaux...
Posted by: dustinshuler
back in the late 90s a guy from over seas named Paul Winrow and his dad came over and contested the whole national MX and TT series. He was a great rider and won some TT heat races in the pro class and even won a moto at muddycreek in the pro class against the best in the world. The white and purple combo was very common for these machines and most all I ever saw had purple maier plastic with white hoods and frames. They flat hauled ***. Also back in the day I remember a company called Phillip Charles Leasure that were really well known at the Pont Dea Vue races and yes they did team up with Duncan. I dont know if theres any relation or not between the two.
Posted by: Nahum
Hi guys - thank you for that informations! But we also need the DirtWheels scans PLEASE!!!
Posted by: rockingkfarms
Paul Winrow did race the Phillips in the Nationals as well as overseas mx and Pont de Vaux. The Phillips cam with purple Maier plastic, blue IMS tanks, blue seats, WP shocks, and pink, blue, or white frames. The motors were either a 500 or 550 non counterbalanced KTM! The a-arms and swingarm were three position adjustable. They were marketed as "Superquads" and priced between $10,000 and $11,500 in the mid '90's.
Posted by: rockingkfarms
Philip Charles Racing was Europe's biggest distributor of Paul Turner/Duncan Racing products. They built/assembled the Pont de Vaux Banshees with riders such as Eichner and Erhardt on board. I am not certain, but I don't think PCR had anything to do with the Phillips company.
Posted by: Nahum
Today I found this braket. Obviously a screw or a bolt is missing! It seems to be a braket of the swingarm. Hope the missing screw or bolt is not important! Hope this braket is not bent cause it´s not eye to eye with the hole of the engine mount.
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8521,braketjpgB6X5Q.jpg
Moreover I discovered this brakets under the gas tank. Don´t know for what this brakets are???
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8522,braket2jpg9Y2WC.jpg
@leager-n-ky
Now I took some photos of the nerfbars and measured the distance center to center between the 2 mounting spots:
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8523,nerfs1jpgTXGTY.jpg
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8524,nerfs2jpg5LXIS.jpg
Maybe I can cut off this part of the old nerfbars. I would also have to cut off the footpegs. Maybe the remaining tube will fit into new AC nerfbars like this ... don´t know
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8525,nerfs3jpgQLHQQ.jpg
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8526,nerfs3ajpgRGLIS.jpg
This guy also has AC nerfbars which are bolted to the frame ...
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8527,nerfs3bjpgR2C1T.jpg
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8528,nerfs4jpgYPND5.jpg
Posted by: leager-n-ky
The bracket is part of the headstay, with a steering stabalizer mount. The stabalizer mounts there, then onto the stem.
Posted by: leager-n-ky
The blue K&K 250r is a stock frame with a mounting piece that takes the place of the foot peg, so you can use Pro pegs on the stock frame.
Posted by: deathman53
that bolt missing from the back of the motor is very important, its the rear motor mount, there should be one of the bottom and another on the top, both go the that center piece of the swingarm on bolts.
Posted by: woodsracer144
quote:
Originally posted by rockingkfarms
Paul Winrow did race the Phillips in the Nationals as well as overseas mx and Pont de Vaux. The Phillips cam with purple Maier plastic, blue IMS tanks, blue seats, WP shocks, and pink, blue, or white frames. The motors were either a 500 or 550 non counterbalanced KTM! The a-arms and swingarm were three position adjustable. They were marketed as "Superquads" and priced between $10,000 and $11,500 in the mid '90's.
alright! i want to see some dang pics of these things! because that is just ****in nuts... a 550 2 stroke... thats just askin for death! and a really big case of arm pump!
Posted by: Nahum
quote:
The blue K&K 250r is a stock frame with a mounting piece that takes the place of the foot peg, so you can use Pro pegs on the stock frame.
Ok and where can I buy such a "mounting piece"???
Here again I found a similar photo with AC nerfs and such a "mounting piece" but I can´t find it on the AC homepage!?
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8536,acaltebefestigung2jpgPCBON.jpg
Moreover I have some further question: There is a small rubber piece that saves the frame not to contact the chain. There are two mouting spots on the frontside and backside. On the backside you can see something like a small pin that holds the rubber piece. Maybe this pin is worn or rubbed off. This is totally missing on the frontside. On the frontside the rubber piece is held by a wire strap. Maybe there was also something like a pin or even an bolt when the frame was new. Does a OEM 250R frame also have such a rubber piece? If it is so how is this rubber piece mounted? By bolts/screws???
Backside
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8534,begutachtung05jpgN7HWG.jpg
Frontside
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8535,begutachtung07jpgOU50O.jpg
Posted by: rockingkfarms
Sorry guys. At this point in time I do not have a scanner. If I get one in the future, I have all the old magazines and some 90's GNCC and local XC race pictures.
Posted by: leager-n-ky
Watch ebay for the footpeg mounts, I thought I posted a link in the beginning of this thread to one that was for sale.
The chain buffer or swingarm protector, where that zip tie is running through that hole, there should be a bolt hole right under it, look and see if the bolt is broke off in the frame right there.
Posted by: leager-n-ky
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hond...sQ5fAccessories
Here it is, but looking at your frame, I dont think this will work.
Posted by: 312R1
quote:
[i]
Moreover I have some further question: There is a small rubber piece that saves the frame not to contact the chain. There are two mouting spots on the frontside and backside. On the backside you can see something like a small pin that holds the rubber piece. Maybe this pin is worn or rubbed off. This is totally missing on the frontside. On the frontside the rubber piece is held by a wire strap. Maybe there was also something like a pin or even an bolt when the frame was new. Does a OEM 250R frame also have such a rubber piece? If it is so how is this rubber piece mounted? By bolts/screws???
[ [/B]
There should be a bolt holding it on, on the top where yours is zip tied.
-Steve
Posted by: Nahum
I ordered a ATVFourplay Softbar a few months ago for my Z440 but it seems to fit perfect to the 250R OEM steering stem ... 
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8551,softbar01jpgGOE6U.jpg
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8552,softbar03jpg3ZF8B.jpg
Posted by: fastrnrik
quote:
Originally posted by woodsracer144
alright! i want to see some dang pics of these things! because that is just ****in nuts... a 550 2 stroke... thats just askin for death! and a really big case of arm pump!
I have a friend who has a Phillips "superquad". The whole purple deal...ugly as hell! lol I think he has white plastics on it now. It has the KTM 550 motor in it. I've rode it. It's retarded fast, but it does vibrate something fierce! The left hand kick starter is weird too! haha
He had the motor done in it, and the piston for that KTM motor cost like $400 or $500, and it took AWHILE to get.
He actually wants to sell it. I thought about buying it, but don't really know what I'd do with it.
Posted by: leager-n-ky
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HOND...sQ5fAccessories
This is the bracket you need for pro pegs on your frame.
Posted by: Nahum
@leager-n-ky
Thank you! I contacted Aaron!
Posted by: Nahum
I had bad luck! I didn´t get those mounts on ebay! The nerfs and the mounts were sold locally in the US.
I think AC doesn´t sell those mounts any longer. So if someone have the same mounts to sell and the mounts are in good shape and not rusted I will buy them ...
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/8580,mountsjpgUQX6F.jpg
Posted by: deathman53
AC sells the blackline nerfs for 88/89 and those use the same adapters. You probably need to call them.
Posted by: 05LSR250R
I have the brackets you need for your nerfs! Pay for the shipping and their yours! PM me1
Posted by: Nahum
@05LSR250R
Thank you for the offer! PM sent ...
Posted by: Nahum
I also now contacted AC and asked if they still sell the brakets/mounts for the 88/89 frame which I need. I also asked if the the 250R brakets also fit other nerfbars from AC for example the TRX450R nerfbars with heelguards.
They sent me this answer:
quote:
yes we do make them and we can send them over seas. you will need to contact sales for pricing and avalibility. they fit to the inside of our nerf bar tubing.
This is great! I think I´m gonna buy totally new brakets from AC ...
http://acracing.com/itemdetails.cfm?id=1556
Posted by: Nahum
Some training hours ... photos from the weekend:
It was quite exciting. It was the second time riding a 2stroke engine. Unfortunately I´m still not used to this 2strokes cause I´m loosing to much speed in the corners. I have to rev it high, I know ... Moreover I´m missing the 50" width of my LTZ in the corners. My 250R only uses stock width at the moment.
http://www.kw-motoparts.de/frod_klein9.jpg
http://www.kw-motoparts.de/frod_klein10.jpg
http://www.kw-motoparts.de/frod_klein11.jpg
http://www.kw-motoparts.de/frod_klein12.jpg
Posted by: Honda 250r 001
dude! That top pic is going on the back ground! THats AWESOME!
Posted by: Nahum
@Honda 250r 001
Here you can download the photo in a much bigger size (resolution 1280x1024)
http://www.bilderspace.de/bild.php/...tinjpgRS110.jpg
Posted by: rustyATV
quote:
Originally posted by Nahum
Some training hours ... photos from the weekend:
It was quite exciting. It was the second time riding a 2stroke engine. Unfortunately I´m still not used to this 2strokes cause I´m loosing to much speed in the corners. I have to rev it high,
You'll need to learn how to drag the clutch in corners to keep your RPM's up. Two Stroke clutches are designed for this so don't worry about wearing it out early.
Posted by: woodsracer144
what he said! ^^ i always feather it a quick time about half ways out... also learn style... it sounds kinda dumb but 4 strokes you can kinda just thung along and not work... like a few corners at my place there a few corners that i just slam thefront brakes in and kick up the rear end and push to the left(its a right had turn) shift my body around and just pin it though the corner... all i know is i grew up on 2 strokers i had a blaster and rode that to hell and back and then i got a 250r that was set up for tt and i sold it because it didnt run like it should in the woods...
take some time... i think its about style... and how you do things every one has their own little tricks and thing that they do...
Posted by: jc217
That top pic is awesome! An old 250R in a recent race roosting the crap out of a fourstroke. Classic!
For just having switched to a blue smoker I'd say you're doing great. Like these guys said, don't be afraid of slipping the clutch.
Posted by: woodsracer144
welcom to the fourms!
Posted by: Britboy
quote:
Originally posted by rockingkfarms
Philip Charles Racing was Europe's biggest distributor of Paul Turner/Duncan Racing products. They built/assembled the Pont de Vaux Banshees with riders such as Eichner and Erhardt on board. I am not certain, but I don't think PCR had anything to do with the Phillips company.
Correct! no relation to Philip Charles Racing (now ATV World)
The Phillips company was formed by son and father Kevin Phillips in England. Kevin was an established rider and him, Paul Winrow and my cousin Richard Cole all had pretty decent success on the Phillips bike. THey didnt run the 500 much more the 250 and it had a Rotax motor in it.
THey did build one bike that came with a World GP Sidecar motor in it- that was a Krauser 500 (4 YZ125 motors bolted together!) it was a 140 HP!!!!!! LOL
i have pics and will post when i find them
Posted by: Britboy
no kickstarter- the fly wheel was so small and had an open case you could fire it off with a small roll on the back of your boot
Posted by: Britboy
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Posted by: Britboy
n
Posted by: Britboy
b
Posted by: Britboy
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Posted by: Britboy
io
Posted by: Britboy
an original Phillips 500
Posted by: Nahum
@Britboy
Thank you for that great info and the photos!
But why went the Phillips company down? Why did they stop producing?
Posted by: Britboy
quote:
Originally posted by Nahum
@Britboy
Thank you for that great info and the photos!
But why went the Phillips company down? Why did they stop producing?
i'm not 100% sure. I would guess once Kevin stopped racing, and the big chassis manufacturers Laegers, LSR etc got going and could build more frames faster. Phillips was literally a 2 man company
Posted by: woodsracer144
i dont know about you but that 4 cyled 125 motor thing is just asking for death!
Posted by: quad janern
quote:
[i](4 YZ125 motors bolted together!) it was a 140 HP!!!!!! LOL
[/B]
Dang That must be one hell of an racer. Awesome pictures ! Thanks!
Posted by: Nahum
Hi guys,
having trouble again ... found out that the tube between the airfilter box and the carb has a big crack ... tried to order a OEM spare part but unfortunately Honda told me the this tube will no longer be offered 
So what can I do?
Does the 400EX or 450R tube fit or even a tube from another brand model like Suzuki, Yamaha, ...
Do you have other suggestions?
Thanks for any replies!
http://www.andreas-haberl.de/misc/schlauch.jpg
Posted by: deathman53
here is a place that has them. The first one is the 86 tube, no resonator, its preffered by alot of people. The second is the 87-89 tube. If for some reason they don't have it, they are usually current on if/not available parts. I have several 87 tubes, used but good. Everybody I know,uses 86 tubes, less places for air leaks.
http://www.babbittsonline.com/pages...rand/parts.aspx
SKU: 17253-HB9-000
TUBE, AIR CLEANER CONNECTING (Honda Code 2301257) 1 $42.58 Add to Cart
SKU: 17253-HB9-670
TUBE, AIR CLEANER CONNECTING (Honda Code 2461960) 1 $42.58
Posted by: troybilt
Nahum,
welcome to the party!
All,
About what timeframe was the DW article on the Phillips quad? I've got all the DW and 3&4 wheel action mags, from the 90's. I can scan it in, but I don't want to search forever, thru my mags, I have them in rough order.
I'll scan the article on the Krauser quad, I just saw it the other night when I was flipping thru some articles. I didn't know what it was at the time.
Posted by: Nahum
@troybilt
Thank you, but I unfortunately don´t know which DW issue deals with the phillips quad ...
Posted by: Nahum
Need help again.
I tried Babbitts to get that air cleaner connecting tube but the problem is that they only accept US based credit cards. I don´t have one cause I´m from overseas.
So does someone know another dealer where I can order the tube!? Please give me some advice! Thanks!
http://www.andreas-haberl.de/misc/tube.jpg
Posted by: troybilt
Do you have a paypal account? Most of those internet based parts depots use paypal too.
Nevermind... just go here they say they accept International orders on their page:
http://www.servicehonda.com/parts.html
They have a similar microfiche system as Babbits, plus I think they are cheaper 
Posted by: Nahum
Thank you but they claim a $150 minimum order value (look at the FAQs). That´s to much. I just need that rubber tube and nothing more ...
Any more suggestions?
Posted by: troybilt
Did you try ebay? Sometimes they'll ship international.
Posted by: Nahum
Well, the conclusion of all my research is that I have to try to get a used one that is in good shape. You won´t get this item any longer as an OEM part!
So, is someone one here willing to sell such a tube to me?
Thank you!
Posted by: leager-n-ky
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HOND...essories
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hond...essorie
s
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/K-N-...essories
Try these.............................
Posted by: All250R
Honda quit making the tubes and stock ran out earlier this year. I have a guy who manufacturers rubber parts with PDX's old 86 boot in his hand who's supposed to be getting a re-manufacture produced this year. He's had some personal problems though, so he's delayed by how long I'm not sure, but hopefully will have something soon enough.
The new boot will feature a slightly straighter tube around the frame bend. That should help reduce turbulence and inertia loss - can't hurt. The rubber is supposed to be a higher quality than the OEM rubber, staying flexible longer.
For some of these slower moving Honda parts that Honda has discontinued, guys like us need to find people to manufacture replacements.
Posted by: Nahum
@leager-n-ky & All250R
Thank you for the informations! 
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