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2010 quad info wanted rumers?
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Posted by: 400exrider69
I've got a little over $3800 saved up and was planning on buying a 450 sport quad.
but i've heard so many rumors of these new quads for 2010
ktm is supposed to have a 250cc 2 stroke atv
honda is supposed to have a 250r four stroke with a motor similar to a crf 250
suzuki is supposed to have a 250 four stoke
all of these are rumored to be manual clutch 4 strokes
all of this sounds great
with this downed econmy i'd rather buy one of these 3
i'd really like to have some insight if any of this is true i've got this money i spent $50 last week to rent a polaris trailblazer just to ride around i'm about to go insane waiting but i'd really like to know if any of this is truth or just rumors
added a pole or i'll try which do you think would be the coolest
Posted by: woodsracer144
i would liek to see a ktm 2 stroker...
Posted by: 907Rider
OMG KTM is coming out with a 250 stroke!! This just made my freaking day
Posted by: sparks 450
I have heard that if honda is to come out with a 250 fourstroke with the same engine as the dirtbike it will not be alot cheaper than the 450.
Posted by: 400exrider69
i just like the idea of a 250rf more
i already got a 450r but want something smaller to beat around and pratice on
i like the kawaskia 250f motor more pulls alot harder
Posted by: woodsracer144
dude you want to have 450r to practice on so you have a stronger motor then hop on the 250f or 250x and go to town... because then you will be able to push that 250 to the limit like you should because your lookin for the power the 450 has...
just my 2 cents
Posted by: hondariderdylan
i dont think that KTM will keep said 2 stroke in production long if the rest of the industry comes out with 4 stroke 250's
i did see the LTR250R in quad, still a rumor but it was actually in the magazine so i makes it a bit more believable
i would love to see a CRF motor shoved into a little TRX frame
Posted by: jcs003
if KTM comes out with a 2-stroke quad the 250r will have a successor. if you ride a 2-stroke you will not want back on a 4-stroke...
Posted by: hondariderdylan
i just dont think that KTM will be able to keep it in prodution
1. the tree huggers will go insane and pull a quick hissy fit and get it pulled from the market like the shee, the blaster, and the trailblazer
2. if the rest of the OEM's come out with 4 stroke 250's and KTM comes out with a 2 stroke then it would have to be put in a different class, cant make as much $ racing by yourself
3. No one knows if all this is even happening
Posted by: Sforza919
250 4-stroke sport quad would be a pud-wacker, not enough power to haul around and get over the jumps with an adult rider on it, however i heard there could be some new 250 2-strokes coming out and if so that would be amazing, i heard that honda possibly bringing back the 250r 2-stroker but not sure, anyone else herd this?
Posted by: hondariderdylan
quote:
Originally posted by Sforza919
250 4-stroke sport quad would be a pud-wacker, not enough power to haul around and get over the jumps with an adult rider on it, however i heard there could be some new 250 2-strokes coming out and if so that would be amazing, i heard that honda possibly bringing back the 250r 2-stroker but not sure, anyone else herd this?
i guess you havent seen the raptor 250 yet
or the power of some of the big name companys 250 4 stroke dirt bikes
Posted by: Sforza919
all im saying the 250 wouldnt even come close to comparing to the 450, however it would be cool if they came out with all 250 quads and they had a 250 and 450 class
Posted by: hondariderdylan
yes 2 classes would be cool but the federal government will not allow production of 2 stroke quads anymore
they have already taken the ones that were there off the market
they would do the same thing if any company came out with a 2 stroke quad,the only 2 strokes they allow now are some 50's and 90's and most of the are turning to 4-pokes now and MX dirt bikes up to 250cc
a few years ago you could get a 350cc quad or a 500cc dirt bike oil-burner but the tree huggers attacked them becuase they are not very enviromentally friendly
two stroke by design are not very efficient in low RPM situations and are meant to be in top end oriented applications, hence the phase out, thats why you dont see honda 250R's as the top race class anymore
Posted by: woodsracer144
quote:
Originally posted by Sforza919
all im saying the 250 wouldnt even come close to comparing to the 450, however it would be cool if they came out with all 250 quads and they had a 250 and 450 class
due a 450 shuld beat a 450... its almost half the size...
also hondariderdylan- you must no know much about sleds be casue can am- skidoo are making some awsome power out of teh e-tech system with teh 2 strokes and tehy are way better the n any other motor you can put in a sled or anything else for the tree huggers...
another thing ryan dungey was wampin the 450's on his rmz250 the start of the year... the 250f motor was way better in the tight stuff... where the 450 is better in the wide open...
one way or another i think the 2 strokes should come back around... alot cheaper and it would help use die hard 250r guys get more race parts!
Posted by: hondariderdylan
quote:
Originally posted by woodsracer144
also hondariderdylan- you must no know much about sleds be casue can am- skidoo are making some awsome power out of teh e-tech system with teh 2 strokes and tehy are way better the n any other motor you can put in a sled or anything else for the tree huggers...
thats sleds not quads
and he was talking about 2 stroke quads
oh yea.... spelling dude
cant hardly understand what your typing
Posted by: woodsracer144
ok i know i cant type and i dont really care...
my point is that can am has the best chance at making a very strong set up for a 2 stroke... you are just some body who doesnt see all the possable things you can use...
i've said my 2 cents and now im done
Posted by: 907Rider
95% of people here don't like 2strokes... plain and simple. They don't know the power that can be made out of half the cc's, they think their old tech, blows up all the time ect ect. I’m not here to preach but at least ride a 2stroke before you bash them. I'm not talking about your friends old ***ty blaster(and yes I own a blaster btw.). Ride a real 2stroke quad or bike. then we will talk.
Posted by: hondariderdylan
quote:
Originally posted by I live for this
95% of people here don't like 2strokes... plain and simple. They don't know the power that can be made out of half the cc's, they think their old tech, blows up all the time ect ect. I’m not here to preach but at least ride a 2stroke before you bash them. I'm not talking about your friends old ***ty blaster(and yes I own a blaster btw.). Ride a real 2stroke quad or bike. then we will talk.
i have rode a real oil burner
race built YZ125
there are beastly, it drove by my quad like it was tied to a stump
its not the ablilty of the two stroke im doubting here, its the possibiltys of production
do you see the blaster,banshee,or trailblazer 250 in prodution anymore?. no you dont becuase the feds pushed them out
you can still buy banshees in australia and europe becuase there government havent cracked down on them
Posted by: woodsracer144
i have a race ready trx250r right now... and i love it... i need to get my shocks tuned up and a few other things but i dont see anything wrong with it... and i had a blaster as well... i beat the piss out of it and i never blew it up... i had ALOT of time on that motor... i dont know how i didnt blow it up...
just the same as 2 strokes your 4 strokes blow up... the higher you build the motor the weaker they get... i dont care who you are its just the way it is... my buddy has a 450r and this is the second year in a row that his motor blew up in him over memoral day weekend... i also i think you need to know how to ride the quad as well... i will give it to you you have alot more shiftig on a 2 stroke but i love the power mine puts out... my buddy has Jonny Galager's (sp) race ready ltz 450 stroker and i walk on him in the straights at my place but he catches me in the corners... and i will admit that i really suck at cornering right now but to save my self some time and everyone else some i still think a 2 stroke could hold its own...
like i said before ... why is can am and BRP still running 2 stroke sleds? its not like the government is gonna crack down on the quads and let the sleds slide by....
Posted by: hondariderdylan
quote:
Originally posted by woodsracer144
like i said before ... why is can am and BRP still running 2 stroke sleds? its not like the government is gonna crack down on the quads and let the sleds slide by....
well i guess thats whats happening
i know nothing about sleds but if they still have the oil burner sleds then they are letting them slip by becuase new 2 stroke quads are outlawed in america, go look around at all of the big names and there websites and tell me if you find a two stroke quad over 100cc
you cant...
Posted by: woodsracer144
ok dude check of brp's e tech system it's better then almost all the four stroke sleds... And there's not much differant in a sled motor and a quad... They don't have crank oil( 2strk) and the are a twin tripple or mabie a 4 banger... Over all it's simple to say you don't like to try new or other items....
Posted by: hondariderdylan
is this crazy BRP 2 stroke motor you keep talking about in a quad?
no, its not becuase the federal government will not allow it
im not here to argue what kind of motors BRP puts in sleds, its not sledriders.com
im simply saying that 2 stroke quads are done for in the near future,if somhow we figure out how to suck pollution out of the air then maybe the tree huggers will allow them..... until then 2 stroke quads are retro machines
Posted by: 907Rider
quote:
Originally posted by hondariderdylan
im simply saying that 2 stroke quads are done for in the near future,if somhow we figure out how to suck pollution out of the air then maybe the tree huggers will allow them..... until then 2 stroke quads are retro machines
I agree with you.....
Posted by: woodsracer144
simple question... when you take a stock quad... lets just say the new yzf450r since its efi and all that and built it to the max... stroke it high compression piston the little programer box a full race exhaust and all that stuff... and you are running race gas what do you think the emissions are because i highly doubt they are anything thing near the thing stock...
Posted by: hondariderdylan
quote:
Originally posted by woodsracer144
simple question... when you take a stock quad... lets just say the new yzf450r since its efi and all that and built it to the max... stroke it high compression piston the little programer box a full race exhaust and all that stuff... and you are running race gas what do you think the emissions are because i highly doubt they are anything thing near the thing stock...
they are not near stock at all but still going to be better than a 2 stroke, do you ever see smoke pouring out of a good running four strokes exhuast at idle?
no....... you dont
Posted by: woodsracer144
the smoke from a 2 stroke is the extra oil in the pre mix or the type... mine doesnt smoke... if it does its only when its cold... its not like i have a trail of smoke...
Posted by: hondariderdylan
well four strokes dont smoke when its cold
they also dont burn the oil they have,two strokes do
my point is that two strokes are not enviromentally freindly,at least not as much as other machines
Posted by: racer 557
i thought i had read this was last year for the 2 strokes because of the smoke from them
Posted by: DMC-4OOEX
Some of you obviously haven't looked into modern-day 2-stroke that much. So quit your crap with the whole oil burning thing.
Modern 2-stroke have way more potential then 4-strokes. The BRP E-Tech outboard engine, produces some 50% less pollution then similar 4-stroke outboards.
It's all in the technology. There's new designs, for direct injection oil that keeps the oil separate from the gas. So it will still be a 2-stroke, and lubricated, but the oil doesn't burn with the gas and spew out the exhaust.
On top of that the fuel injection will always have it tuned right.
KTM IS making a 1000cc 2-stroke motorcycle, that produces 200HP. V4 Cylinder I believe.
People don't give 2-stroke any credit. They have SO much more potential then 4-strokes power AND economy. When BRP discovered the 2-stroke technology, they completely got rid of their 4-stroke outboards.
Let's say Yamaha took the time to re-do the banshee. A direct injection system with fuel injection and powervalves. They could have had a MONSTER that produces less emissions then a 450 4-stroke.
"KTM has announced record 2008 sales of 25,000 two-stroke bikes and says it sees no end to the high-performance two-stroke. Australian firm Orbital is testing a 200bhp, fully emissions-compliant 1000cc twin that’s lighter and more fuel efficient than any rival four-stroke. Aprilia craves an accessible performance middleweight, says it could easily render its seminal RS250 Euro-3 compliant and has twice already come close to releasing such a bike. R&D departments in Europe, Asia and North America are arriving at the same conclusion: everything you know about two-strokes is wrong, and their revenge against the four-stroke is imminent.
“The complexity of a high-performance four-stroke engine is frightening” says Steven Ahern of Australian engineering R&D firm Orbital, owner of key direct injection patents. “To get power out of a four-stroke you’ve got to go for high rpm, very fancy materials, and you’ve got to sacrifice the torque at low and mid rpm. The customer is the one who has to foot the bill and it’s becoming prohibitive – and they’re getting engines the same vices two strokes used to be damned with.”
Orbital believes the two-stroke is the only engine which gives manufacturers the performance headroom customers will demand – and experts agree that none of the traditional two-stroke vices need apply. It’s only a matter of time before the truth shows through the four-stroke greenwash, says Denver Lawson, who as R&D consultant to China’s vast Jialing Motorcycle Company is designing a wave of new direct-injection two-stroke motors: “What the world wants is efficiency. And whether it’s efficiency or performance you want the fact a four-stroke wastes two strokes is a big issue. It’s not going to be a case of riders having to be convinced about two-strokes again, the world’s going to demand those wasted strokes back.”
Emissions laws dealt a mortal blow to the performance two-stroke in the seventies and eighties, but it’s something other than technical realities that have kept the lid on the coffin, according to Dave Blundell of Lotus Engineering: “Any two-stroke can be made clean enough to pass current emissions standards thanks to Orbital’s air-assisted injection. But manufacturers have invested unimagined billions in four-stroke and they’re very happy for people’s prejudices about ‘dirty, peaky’ two-strokes to remain.”
Orbital’s air-assisted direct injection technology (ADI) separates oil and fuel, keeping oil out of the combustion process and surrounding the fuel vapour in a plume of air which allows clean combustion in the short time the two-stroke cycle allows. The injection of the charge happens after the exhaust port is closed, so none is lost, and because the air injection is so effective at atomising the fuel, injector pressure can be lower – meaning the injector themselves can be cheap; far cheaper than the diesel injectors in your car which run at up to ten times the pressure. Orbital’s computer-controlled ADI cuts oil consumption by 80% and fills out the two-stroke’s torque curve to four-stroke-beating levels. It also dramatically reins in fuel consumption, as Mike Ambler - project leader in Aprilia’s engine department when the firm secretly tested ADI on its RS250 - remembers: “The ADI-equipped RS was so efficient that it could run on the tailpipe emissions of the regular RS250 at idle”.
Dyno comparision - 450 two stroke vs. 450 four stroke.
Dyno comparision - 450 two stroke vs. 450 four stroke.
Tomorrow’s two-strokes on the dyno
Future two-strokes will have capacities on a par with four-strokes, allowing a milder state of tune than that which earned them their peaky reputation. The result trounces the four-stroke for power, torque, flexibility and even service intervals says Orbital – whose experimental (and under-developed) 450cc single-cylinder two-stroke produced these curves against a rival 450cc four-stroke. The stroker also proved smaller and lighter, cheaper to build, less thirsty and with identical emissions.
Orbital earns royalties on every ADI-equipped engine produced, and spent the nineties and early 2000s focusing on mass-market small-capacity utility machines and courting automotive firms. But it’s since entered into partnerships with high-performance bike manufacturers it says will bear fruit soon. Big fruit: “We’re testing a 1000cc engine with performance up to 200bhp and 118lb-ft per litre with performance anywhere and completely emissions compliant” says Ahern.
Who those partners are Orbital won’t say, though an ADI-equipped EXC300 from KTM is strongly rumoured. But what it will say is telling: “Everyone, except Honda, is harbouring significant two-stroke thoughts” says Ahern.
That’s no wonder, says Harald Bartol, two-stroke engineering luminary and technical director of KTM’s grand prix activities: “When I look at two strokes I see only advantages – the power, the weight, the cost and complexity. And the riding dynamics of two-stroke 250s are very close to the 800cc MotoGP bikes. If I were making a sportsbike for the road I would choose a 500cc V4 two-stroke. I have absolutely no doubt it would be superior to the current superbikes, and be possible with existing legislation.”
It may even happen, as Bartol becomes more and more disenchanted with racing’s four-stroke pogrom: “The technical reasons for the change is nonsense. They are all excuses for a business plan which is coming from Honda.”
It’s a disenchantment that’s echoed outside of racing. Dave Blundell of Lotus: “There are lots of very pro-two-stroke engineers at Honda, and they’ve done incredible work in the field, but within the firm it’s become regarded as disloyal to support two-strokes. Their influence is so massive it’s distorted the truth about the engineering.” The truth which even Honda knows says Aprilia’s Mike Ambler: “That two-strokes can be at least as clean, and more fuel efficient thank a four-stroke – their own benchmark tests with ADI-equipped two-strokes against their best four-strokes proved it.” Orbital’s Ahern: “10 years ago from an emissions point of view two-stroke and four-stroke engines were chalk and cheese. Honda’s marketing department went into overdrive and stayed there.”
With oil and fuel separated, injection computer-mapped and the mixture air-blast assisted, the new breed of two-strokes won’t recognise their smoking, spluttering, peaky forbears. They may not resemble them in capacity either. Orbital now believes two-strokes of comparable capacities to four-strokes, running at a less frenetic pace, offer the best combination of explosive two-stroke power, and flat ’n’ fat four-stroke torque curve.
The combination certainly proved mouthwatering for Aprilia. Mike Ambler: “In 2005-6 we looked long and hard at a 600cc two-stroke in an RS250 chassis. The prototype was slated to have 110-125bhp at 8-9000rpm, and weigh 145kg. That would have been a hot-rod, but in the end it was decided we’d have more chance of marketing a Mana than an RS600DI.” When asked if a clean middleweight two-stroke would bridge the yawning gap in Aprilia’s sportsbike range, product manager Francesco Polimeni replies: “I completely agree. And things seem to be changing in the past 12 months, customers warming up to this type of bike. We are keeping our eyes open so as to pounce on any opportunity that becomes available.”
In the dyno rooms and laboratories of the world’s most advanced centres of R&D – including Britain’s Lotus and Ricardo – the boundaries of economy, performance and flexibility are being pushed with two-stroke technologies. Riders craving their explosive performance are feeding a burgeoning subculture of limited-run old-school strokers. So how long before they go mainstream again? As soon as riders know to demand them says Steven Ahern: “Today more than ever manufacturers are listening to what customers want, not saying ‘we’ve made this, you’ve got to buy it’. They’ve just got to know it’s okay to demand more torque, less weight and better efficiency at lower cost.”
“I’ve ridden the future”
Jeremy Bowdler is the editor of Australia’s Two Wheels magazine and the only man outside Aprilia to ride the RS250ADI – the Orbital-equipped next-generation RS.
“It was Aprilia’s DiTech-equipped [Aprilia’s brand name for ADI] SR50 scooter that first got me thinking about the potential of an RS250. Jeez it was fast. I started pestering the local Aprilia distributors about giving Orbital an RS250 to play with, and eventually they let slip that there was, indeed, a RS. Eventually – after a long and difficult negotiation – I was not only allowed to see the bike, but I was also allowed to ride it. In the carpark. But at least I was riding something that didn’t exist. Officially.”
A long discussion with the guys from Orbital, from sales and engineering, ensured that I would never, ever, ever mention the bike’s existence. So here goes.
With the DiTech system the RS could run on various fuel maps, well before the variable fuel injection maps offered by today’s sportsbikes, and the engineers could build almost any power characteristics into the engine, short of an S-shaped power curve.
“We could have a really soft delivery, say for riding in the rain, or a broad spread if you wanted that. We could even have an absolute ******* peaky engine, with nothing and then a 500rpm powerband. Almost anything is possible,” one engineer commented (and I saw the dyno charts).
The proof was in the pudding. After a couple of laps of the carpark on the stock bike, I started the RS DiTech. Not a puff of smoke to be seen…
The best description I can give is that it felt just like a four-stroke, pulling off the bottom end without any clutch slipping or two-strokiness. The noise was deeper, sort of halfway between a two and a four-stroke but the breadth of the powerband was what really impressed. Just a steady stream of non-peaky power. I was excited. As an aside, one of the engineers mentioned he could triple the range of a four-stroke dirt bike quite simply, without any need for a large tank.
But there was one great regret: Bimota’s VDue. “We could have made that one work,” they said ruefully.
‘We’ve given up on four-strokes’
Leading outboard motor firm Evinrude sells at the premium performance end of the marine market. The firm abandoned four-stroke development after discovering direct injection offered their 25-300bhp two-strokes more power, better economy and less weight. They’re also emissions compliant to projected Euro 2010 standards. Spokesman Mike Loach says: “There’s a place for four strokes – doing the dull jobs. They’re bloody heavy and don’t give the power or the torque of the two-strokes. We believe two-strokes are simply better and people who try them quickly agree”. But Loach warns that the four-stroke mafia loom large: “The misinformation that’s spread about two-strokes goes right up to government. It’s a serious threat to our business, and we have to confront other manufacturers’ propaganda all the time.”
Two-strokes at the cutting edge
Lotus and Ricardo (architects of BMW’s K1300 engine) both have flagship two-stroke engines on the test bench. Lotus’ 500cc research engine Ominvore has a moveable ‘puck’ at the top end which it uses to alter the compression ratio, allowing it to run optimally on any fuel. It also features Orbital ADI and compression ignition capability – offering leading-edge combustion efficiency that the inherently energy-efficient two-stroke cycle complements perfectly. Early runs have Lotus very excited.
Ricardo’s 2100cc 2/4SIGHT experimental engine is able to switch from 2-stroke to 4-stroke operation. It uses a 2-stroke cycle to meet demands for high torque and 4-stroke for constant-throttle running. In tests the engine has hit 165lb-ft per litre in two-stroke mode…"
Posted by: woodsracer144
where did you find all that! i wish some one would make a fi for the 250r... that was BA... i also with honda would come back out with a production 250r... and use aound tubing chassis...
Posted by: DMC-4OOEX
quote:
Originally posted by woodsracer144
where did you find all that! i wish some one would make a fi for the 250r... that was BA... i also with honda would come back out with a production 250r... and use aound tubing chassis...
There was a whole article on it off of a motorcycle website. Pretty cool huh? The 2-strokes ARE the future.. it's just a matter of these manufacturers to use some money and design. KTM is already in the process of all this 2-stroke technology.
Posted by: woodsracer144
im all for the 2 stroke... the only thing im not looking foward to are the prices on the trx250r parts if they go back to what they were back in the say.. now its really cheap to buy parts for them..
i think that cam am with the e tech will have a killer set up if they can get the DS chassis set up to do well... this year they didnt do very well and john finally was gettin to the top at the end of the season.. so mabie they figured their stuff out... but i think it is going to get nuts... i think it would be sweet running 450cc 2 strokes with FI PV motor those things would kill every thing... your right abou the shee thing... it seems for some reason factorys de tune and know it... mabie for safty... my buddy has a 08 nija 250 and its like ridin a flip 90 for throttle resopnce... its like throw in 2 37mm or 38mm FCR's on that thing and use the motor that would but...
Posted by: DMC-4OOEX
quote:
Originally posted by woodsracer144
im all for the 2 stroke... the only thing im not looking foward to are the prices on the trx250r parts if they go back to what they were back in the say.. now its really cheap to buy parts for them..
i think that cam am with the e tech will have a killer set up if they can get the DS chassis set up to do well... this year they didnt do very well and john finally was gettin to the top at the end of the season.. so mabie they figured their stuff out... but i think it is going to get nuts... i think it would be sweet running 450cc 2 strokes with FI PV motor those things would kill every thing... your right abou the shee thing... it seems for some reason factorys de tune and know it... mabie for safty... my buddy has a 08 nija 250 and its like ridin a flip 90 for throttle resopnce... its like throw in 2 37mm or 38mm FCR's on that thing and use the motor that would but...
Yeah. It seems that Honda wants no part in making any more two-strokes though. It's a shame.
450cc FI Direct Injected PV quads would be INSANE. They would make much more horsepower then the 450 4-chokes and still be lighter. I could just imagine a modern 2-stroke in an aluminum frame..
With the banshee's, when they came out in 87 Yamaha did have to de-tune them. In 86' when they raced the baja with the first banshee, if you look they actually used Toomey-made pipes, the T1's. But with those, back then that was right after the whole 3-wheeler thing so the government was strict. They purposely built the stock exhaust with restrictors and such to reduce the horsepower so much to comply with government regulations.
That's why they respond to pipes like a turbo haha. I still wish they at least kept the powervalves, as the RZ350 had them which the banshee motor came from.
Posted by: woodsracer144
right there with you on the lightness... my buddy has a 450 and its all race ready and that thing is a TANK compaired to mine... mine i can throw around really easy... its like a walk in the park...
i would like to see that KTM 1000 CC 2-stroke motor in a street quad... Buell made a 4 cylinder bike back in the day and it was banned from the track guys who rode it said if you touched the gas at all comming out of a corner you would lose control... i cant rember what the size was i think it was a 900 or a 1200... but they only made like 3 or 4 of them... really really really rare..
Posted by: DMC-4OOEX
quote:
Originally posted by woodsracer144
right there with you on the lightness... my buddy has a 450 and its all race ready and that thing is a TANK compaired to mine... mine i can throw around really easy... its like a walk in the park...
i would like to see that KTM 1000 CC 2-stroke motor in a street quad... Buell made a 4 cylinder bike back in the day and it was banned from the track guys who rode it said if you touched the gas at all comming out of a corner you would lose control... i cant rember what the size was i think it was a 900 or a 1200... but they only made like 3 or 4 of them... really really really rare..
Yeah of put it in one of those Can-Am 3-wheeled things. haha
Posted by: woodsracer144
the spyder! that would be nuts...
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