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86-87 swinger mod
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Posted by: zedicus00

this may or may not hav been covered here before but i figured its worth a note just in case.

for thouse of us running 86-87 style frames you may have noticed there is not an over abundance of good used parts available any more.

the stock swingarm on my quad is cracked and for some reason it gets a little worse every time i ride it...

i noticed 450R arms apear to be pretty close in mounting to a good old 86 swinger so i snagged one of thiefbay for a fair price to give it a whirl.

i used a stock 04-05 model swinger from a 450R, other years may work, also aftermarket 450R arms should work too.

things that had to be modified.

you have to use the inner front tubes from the 86-87 as the 450R ones stick inwards about an extra half inch on each side. 450r bearings worked fine.

mounting to the frame its perfect no problem whatso ever.

the engine mount tube between the arm and the tube itself on the old arm has a seal. the 450r swinger has the seal inside it. not a major problem. just check the tube occasionally and keep it clean.

the dog bone mount for the swinger is about 2 mm to narrow. i fixed this by filing it by hand.

you will need the dog bone bolt for the 450R arm

a 450R carrier is recomended. not nesasary but recomended. if you use the 250r carrier there will be about a 1/8 inch gap on each side when its centered. once u get it bolted in and the carrier bolts tite i dont think it would move. i made a shim for each side just in case but after being on it i really dont think they are necesary.

the little spacer that goes in the slide for the brake stay bracket should come from the 450R also. the 250r one will work but there is no flange to keep it on and the 450r arm has no retainer clip grove. i stuck on the 250r one the very slightly mushroomed the pin. seems to work good.

if theres any major questions i can post pics but i think if u get everything layed out in front of you its pretty easy to figure out.

Posted by: 86 Quad R

i'm from the show me state lol. i wanna see some pics zed.

Posted by: 87250rxrider

sounds interesting. i'd like to see some pics as well b/c i'm in the market for a swingarm for my project 250r, and if i can save some money that way i'll do it.

Posted by: zedicus00

http://i7.tinypic.com/67q176e.jpg

shows the entire thing all mounted up. you can see the shims i made out of aluminum plate. this is optional i would think. and if u had a 450R carrier this would be completely unnecessary.

http://i8.tinypic.com/4tpnn00.jpg

just shows the side mount. fits like a glove. i stuck a spare seal in there just cuz. there is a seal on the inside of the swinger so i only did this becuz i had a seal laying around.

http://i11.tinypic.com/6fg223s.jpg

well i did havde to notch the chain slide a bit to keep it from hitting the sprocket. its in a place where the chain doesnt even touch it though so it wont cause a thin spot or anything.

i did hav the chain on and tool it around the yard. im missing a rear chain slide and will be getting a swinger gaurd also before i consider it finished and buttoned up completly.

Posted by: 86 Quad R

thanks for posting pics. i may consider this mod myself in the future. how much difference in length is the 450 swinger compared to the 250?

Posted by: zedicus00

it apears to be about the same length as an 88-89 250r swinger or about -1 to the 86-87 swinger. this is assuming using a stock 450R swinger.

basically im ending up with a bolt on mod to get the benefits of the 88-89 style stock swinger onto a 86-87 frame. liter weight aluminum and slightly shorter swinger.

this and the 450R front end i will bolting up next weekend. and then ive got a set of marvin shaws that i need to hav converted to coilovers that will be put on before too long. and i should hav a good handleing quad that has lost a significant amount of weight.

Posted by: 86 Quad R

what 450r front end parts are ya going to be putting on there?

Posted by: zedicus00

everything from the spindle out. so spindles, hubs, brakes, etc. im keeping a few of the parts that were originally going to go on that aluminum frame that i have listed and they are going on my stock framed 250r. (the one in the pic the that i bolted this 450r swinger onto.)

450r spindles r aluminum and are another bolt on mod as documented by me in the brake swap sticky.

NOTE: ive never been one for buying prefab mods. i think the whole point of modding is to make things work. i hav some pics of the custom no-link set up i was going to run on the aluminum frame that i will post sometime in case any of you are looking for a cheap yet awsome way to go no link with out buying much new hardware.

actually i will tell you that all you need is a banshee rear shock to go no link on a 250R. that is it. remove yur link and link shock. bolt banshee shock to frame and swinger. now there are some minor points to be dealt with. shock valving, bushings for between shock and frame. but nothing that cant be easily dealt with.. absolutly no welding or major fabing is involved.

also depending on how you like yur ride hieght you might opp for an adjustable height aftermarket banshee shock.

Posted by: 86 Quad R

awesum idea/setup.

be sure to post pics of that when ur done.

quote:
Originally posted by zedicus00 also depending on how you like yur ride hieght you might opp for an adjustable height aftermarket banshee shock. [/B]

actually i was thinking along those lines as i dont like the stock banshee shock.

dont ask me why.

Posted by: zedicus00

im never done, i will post pics as i go though.

u might check out my previous post again, i added tons of stuff in the last edit. i think on the fly a bit.

also, is it just me or is it odd that after 20 YEARS the diffences that honda is making to the 250R design and calling it a revolutionary new sport atv (the 450r) can be measured in millimeters??

Posted by: 87250rxrider

would the banshee rear shock still work if i were to put a 450r swinger on my 250r?

thanks,
-Ryan

Posted by: zedicus00

yes, shimming and spacing may be slightly different. where the stock linkage mounts to the swinger is different across each swinger variant also so you will need that specific bolt from the swingarm it goes too. you cant just use any typle of bolt you want there. the 450R swingarm has a floting bolt very similar to the bolt for the 88-89 style 250R arm. this helps destress this area on the aluminum swingers. the 86-87 steal swinger just has a normal flange head bolt.

also running a no link set up with a 450R swinger would eliminate the need to file the linkage mount as you could shim it exactly where u needed to instead of needing to remove material to get the linkage to fit.

actually i had the stock shock pulled out and was going to swap to a other banshee style shock i had laying around but the airboot was in the road, an lt500 airboot or something would prolly clear. i will jump through this hurdle at some other point. another option would be run a carb mount aircleener and do away with the airbox and intake boot completly.

Posted by: xlr810

Great thread, Zed.

Once I saw the design of the 450R swinger, I always wondered if it could be made to fit a 250R.

I wish I had thought of using a banshee shock for no-link conversion on an R. I just sold one that was TCS revalved and resprung.

Posted by: zedicus00

http://i11.tinypic.com/4zx5bv5.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/4vgmxrs.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/4vsufwp.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/4kxeoa8.jpg

heres where im at now. rear end still in same place. front end is +2 +1 with 450R spindles brakes and stuff. new handlebars yet to come.

ive got a beet up set of white fenders im gunna refurb and some black vynil im gunna make a seat cover out of so it will be basically all white or nutral colors.

Posted by: blasterandy

arnt those drag shocks ??

Posted by: zedicus00

they r competition drag shocks. i need to order a set of coilovers but they will work for now.

they actually handle really well and as long as you dont do no 50 footer flat landers they hold up fine. they are amazing on whoops and rutted terain.

Posted by: 87250rxrider

well, the 450r swingarm i bought just arrived today, so i bolted everything up. i used a 400ex axle, 400ex hubs, 400ex antifade locknut, and complete 400ex rear brake setup including master cylinder.

in order to get the 400ex brake caliper bolted to the caliper stay, i had to file down a small area of the swingarm so one of the bolts would clear the swingarm.

in order to get the 400ex master cylinder to bolt up, i had to flip the master cylinder the opposite way it would bolt on the 400ex, then i had to fabricate an aluminum extension so it could be bolted to the pedal.

my 250r frame is an '86 year frame but has had motor mounts welded onto the frame to make it like an '89 style frame. with this mod, all i had to do was cut a piece of pipe the correct length to fit between the two ends of the swinger where it bolts to the frame.

here are some pics:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pfa923354a041ff99cd73762b983fce5b/e8c30219.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pa72f352048eb65e930ccec886f59b77a/e8c300d4.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p589d61594f5f2d4eb1343e91a2eadc9b/e8c2ffcc.jpg

thanks,
-Ryan

Posted by: zedicus00

awsome, looks goood man.

did the 400ex carrier fit perfect or does it stick out/in any?

Posted by: 87250rxrider

the Herrmann racing 400ex carrier i'm using does stick out about 2mm on each side.

Posted by: eddie pettengil

hows this working out for you guys. Looking at buying one right now.

Posted by: 87250rxrider

my setup is complete. it works great, and i have no complaints at all. it sure was a lot cheaper than buying a 250r swingarm, and a lot nicer looking.

Posted by: atvmxr

this needs to be a sticky since no-one seems to know this information......

Posted by: 250Renvy

I'm wondering if all this would work best if you used a complete 450R rear end?

Is there any issues with chain alignment?

Will any choice of 250R, 400ex or 450R antifade hub work?

Posted by: 87250rxrider

as of currently, i have been using my 450r swinger since last summer with no issues at all. you are going to want to use the 250r linkage and shock. a minimal amount of grinding will have to be done to the shock mount on the swinger, and by the carrier if you wish to use a 400ex rear brake caliper and mount as i did. thats all that had to be done. it fits on perfectly and has no issues.

-Ryan

Posted by: jake_evans420

If you put the 450 swinger on an 86 250r can you still use your stock 250r axle, and brakes,etc or do you have to buy all 450 parts???

Posted by: vic425

hey ive been looking for a pair of those competition drag shocks where can i find some...........

Posted by: 87250rxrider

you can still use stock axle and brakes. some shimming will be needed to brake caliper.

Posted by: ERBE

So basically just confirm, a 450R Swing Arm Carrier and Cailiper (the whole rear end axel and all will work)

Posted by: 87250rxrider

all you need is a 450r swingarm. you can make everything else work.

Posted by: brandonpeake

is this on the 86-87 frsme only? will it not eork on sn 88

Posted by: atvmxr

works on the 88+ too. need to make a tube in the middle of the front where the bolt goes through.

this swap is good for the 86/87 style because of the rear engine mounting difference you cant use the 88+ swinger which is shorter and aluminum. using the 450 swinger allows you to get these benifits and keep the 86/87 engine mounting. If I had an 88 I would just use a stock 88/89 swinger unless I found a 450r one cheaper..

Posted by: xlr810

As you know parts for the 250Rs are becoming harder to find, and more expensive, while some are being discontinued.

I had been running a 400ex pivot bolt in my 250R since it was considerably cheaper and almost identical... One from a 450R is even less expensive, and works fine too-- That is what I'm currently using. Both the 400ex and 450R bolts are a fraction of an inch longer than the 250R bolt, so a washer or two are needed.

Posted by: ERBE

Im sure you could use the 250r parts, seems to me to be eaiser to just use the 450R carrier and Brake setup, the only thing that worries me is this :

Sand getting into this part?

Is there a way of using a dust cap??

the engine mount tube between the arm and the tube itself on the old arm has a seal. the 450r swinger has the seal inside it. not a major problem. just check the tube occasionally and keep it clean.
Filed the swinger or the dogbone? 2mm is amost .080"
the dog bone mount for the swinger is about 2 mm to narrow. i fixed this by filing it by hand.

Posted by: krt400ex

quote:
Originally posted by zedicus00
im never done, i will post pics as i go though.

u might check out my previous post again, i added tons of stuff in the last edit. i think on the fly a bit.

also, is it just me or is it odd that after 20 YEARS the diffences that honda is making to the 250R design and calling it a revolutionary new sport atv (the 450r) can be measured in millimeters??

the revolution comes in the engine...

honda started the revolution with the 250R handling, and now they finish it with the 450R engine...

i like the 250R better

Posted by: dtek01

We just did this on my Uncles 86'.

Did anyone else notice that the dogbone mount tabs on top of the 450r swingarm are out about an 1 1/4" back from the oem 250r swingarm location and stretches the dogbone out and raises the back end when you bolt it up?

Reason I ask is it also seems to bind the rear end and the back feels much stiffer than before as well as higher up.

Is there a trick to overcome this?

Posted by: TheNewn

Lower the preload? adjust the two rings on top of the spring to make it sit lower. Although i'm not sure how this effects the shaft travel and what not.

Posted by: atvmxr

you may need to use a 87+ dog bone, i believe the 86 is an inch longer.

Posted by: brandonpeake

so what about linkage and shock could u use a Gt thunder link and a 450R shock, now that would be sweet

Posted by: brandonpeake

with this 450r swinger mod are u using the 450r shock and linkage or the 250R shock, I assumed u would use the 450r but i was cuious about the top mount?
I have extra 450r parts laying around so I might try it out i would love to try a GTT link and 450 revalce on the rear, im thinking about trying them on the front but i got a set of elka zero preload 400ex shocks on the front now that are working pretty good but i just got the bike so I havent put it through the paces yet, ill let u know after the weekend