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kickstart conversion
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Posted by: blanchard

I am completley rebuilding my 03 ex for mx, and im wondering if i can completly remove the electric start and have only kick start? any help would awesome, this is my first time rebuilding a quad any advice on where to start would be very much apreciatted.

thanx

Posted by: underpowered

SEARCH! this topic has be brought up, beat to death, then brought back up to be beat back to death. there are many post on it.

pretty much you need all the internals from an XR 400 motor, so pretty much by the time you are done with it, you might as well jsut buy a complete XR400 motor and sell you stock 400. you need almost the entire XR bottom end to make it work.

Posted by: steve #7

The it is a easy swap I did it. Won't fit 05 on up because of reverse. all other years are already machined. Big perfomance gain.

Posted by: j450rking

i would relly like to see some pics of that

Posted by: steve #7

I will post more the fly wheel weight difference is unbelievable Gobs more torque

Posted by: steve #7

no starter, wire harness, or any other electrical. Also eliminates the rev limiter. so you need no after market CDI

Posted by: steve #7

Here is the diference in the flywheel . 2 1/4 lbs. lighter do the math. 38 % more torque on a dyno to the rear wheels. So sometimes when someone comes up with a Question lets not make fun of them . their only try to go faster.. I only ran this set up in practice . This next race it will be used in open A. So tune them big bore 450's. Oh yeah a stroker crank with a standard stroke piston makes 15-1 comp. but you'll need the biggest web cam with alot of valve overlap to kick it. Hot cams do not work.

Posted by: 400exrapes

if you have a dyno chart of your quad id love to see it cuz i beleive u i wanna see what kinda numbers you pull

Posted by: davetheslave

wow.....Thats ******* sweet!!

Posted by: steve #7

Its a 460 stroker . web cam ,titanium valves. head has a seperate oil cooler. Knife edged crank, home made 15-1 piston. 15 -35 sprocket. going to a 16 to try and keep the wheels down .Head and intake are ported and flow benched ,very thin. The only pipe that makes power is Curtis sparks X-6. tried most of the others . Although at Illinois Curtis Sparks spent some time with us and suggested a shorter system from him. Cutis Sparks FCR carb, All others are junk . been there tried them. We have blown many motors getting this combination right. we try all of are inventions on two other 400ex's The most power increase of all upgrades that is really noticable is the removal of the electric start. Its not the dead weight that makes the biggest difference . Its the recipricating weight. A stock 400 with a 440 big bore X-6 pipe and curtis sparks fcr 39 carb and a 2 lb 6 oz lighter flywheel will pull a hole shot on most other built atvs. Are next project is a Honda 450 for pro-am unlimited I'm sure it will be a rocket compared to the 400. we're using what we have and getting the most out of it . Isn't that what it all about. So you guys that are to weak to kick remember . I you aint first your last!! See ya in Virginia I'll bring the tissues this time so we can keep the mud to the minimum. Steve

Posted by: j450rking

wow now that is a crazy wheeler i might just have to do the flywheel thing. did you get a diferent one or did you have it machined?

Posted by: j450rking

i see you have a diferent brake pedal. did you make it or did you get it from another wheeler or somthing?

also what is the other mods you had to do to get the xr engine in there?

and could i put my 416 top end on the xr bottom?

Posted by: steve #7

This is not an XR engine it is a trx they all take kick up to 2005. I used two brake pedals cut both and turned the other upsidedown and welded it in place after some bending. also flipped the toe pedal. The only difference in the xr to the trx is the width of the crank . So the mag side cover from the xr won't fit. I cut the starter drive off the trx cover and welded a curved piece of alluminum in. The flywheel was machined in are shop. you can eliminate 1 lb 3 oz and still use electric. .110 off the outside .070 off the back. You can also cut the collar and bolts that hold the one way clutch for the starter drive. if your going to the kick only cut the hub as close to the rivits as you can. if you notice I even took some off of the rivets for a total of 2 lbs 6 oz. I will post pictures of the flywheel cut for electric start when it comes off for the next race. Complete wire harness is eliminated. The only wires needed are stator and CDI. one wire going from the CDI to the altenator can be taken out this is the rev control. remember use 2000 and up kick assembly its larger in diameter. 2000 up ,kick shaft , seal , kicker, and cover, and idle bushing. The clutck basket is shorter for the xr so you will need to put your basket on the xr plate since you'll need the gear . We bought a used xr basket that was shot and put a hinson replacement basket on. you will need a hinson outer clutch cover the xr is to short the trx has one more plate and disk. The only clutch we use is the factory honda. we tried alot of others and they slip with this much torque using American racers and testing on pavement. They are also lighter and thicker so you get more spring pressure. After talking with Curtis Sparks in Illinois we came up with a better system for next install of the Kicker. The one pictured Has a extended Shaft . We will be using a factory length shaft now. You need 3/4 inch for frame clearance .We also used pro pegs and mounted them like the 86 250r's. the rear bolt goes through the pipe that holds the peg. cut all excess metal off of the pro peg mount. This gives room for the kicker and moves the peg 1 3/4 inches lower. this lowers the center of gravity and is aslo more comfortable to ride. Feels more like my R's. I hope that answers some questions. Steve sk3406@ptd.net

Posted by: davetheslave

QUOTE-2000 up ,kick shaft , seal , kicker, and cover, and idle bushing.

this is all you need to do the job other than some cutting, welding, and machining the flywheel?

And you have to use a Hinson clutch cover, not the XR or TRX.
Let me know if I'm missing something, other than that, seems pretty straight forward.

Posted by: sc400ex_rider

wow this is sweet you rock.

doing something that is impossible is what makes us americans. i def want to do this mod but i will keep my electric start. i blew up the pic to see how you got around the magnet. so i take .070 off of "a" and .110 of of "c" but im not sure can i take any off of "b" . ohh and what color wire or what circuit is for the rev limiter.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r20/starcraftier1/flywheel.jpg

Posted by: steve #7

Just leave enough on be to keep the hub centered. Also at the bottom of the bevel on the hub cut straight in. cut the bolts off too. When I take my electric start flywheel off this weekend I will post picks and measure it.

Posted by: Hondabeefast

steve-that is one bad ***** ex

Posted by: j450rking

did you use the hinson cover for the xr or the trx?

Posted by: 250x_kyle

well heres the thing that fly wheels is on the left side case. the clutch cover is on the right side. the plug where the kick startw ould go is on the right side. you pop that out and put ur shaft and gear in there. but the only problem whti his 400 is that its a back wards kick. if anybody has tried to make a kick start kit for a 400 would know that it has to be a forward kick.

Posted by: j450rking

idk how you would make it forward

Posted by: 250x_kyle

heres the thing the gear that the kick start gear goes up against would make it a forward kick not a backwords kick. in the pics of his machine it would be a back wards kick.

Posted by: steve #7

I originally bought a xr cover . This consisted of the inner and outer it was two pieces. when I put it on. the trx basket was rubbing the outer cover. And the clutch would not release. This made me aware that the trx had a deeper basket to hold more disks. After grinding the cover and the pressure plate I got it to clear. Then a new problem arose the clutch would still not release. So I reclocked the lever. I bought this cover to make it easy to replace my clutch for the next race. Because of the power of my motor I was tearing them up. I plugged the kicker hole at that time because I was not considering kick start yet. After that race I saw a hinson cover on Ebay and bought it It was listed for a TRX 400EX . When I recieved it I saw the kicker hole too was plugged. I made a few inqruiries and found that all hinson covers were XRs they just plugged the kicker hole for the trx orders . So any one that payed to have there cover machine by hinson was gettting a xr cover back. ?????. Shame on hinson. At this time since I already had the inner cover drilled and restricted for the head cooler I just added the outter cover to what was on my motor. Make sure when you do the Kicker you buy a new kick shaft for a 2000 no other year. and also the seal and the kicker. This is the only way you will be sure to get the heavy duty one that works. All other parts will work from any year. Except the intermediate gear bushing . This goes on the trans shaft to hold the intermediate gear that uns the basket . All other years use a smaller bushing and will not fit the the TRX trans shaft . I just got finished with curtis sparks Idea on the kick extension. I tig welded two kicker bases together. this gave me the 3/4 of an inch for frame clearance. Since you will have the inner clamp to hold the kicker on the kick shaft. The outer clamp which is welded to the inner is empty. I made a short shaft to go in the outer clamp . Mounted a bearing to it made a brace off of the pro peg mount. This gave me the extra strength for the 15-1 460 piston. This will not have to be done on a 12-1 440. If you look at the pics you will notice no brake spring . It is on the rear master cylinder with two washers . works better than factory. I cut my own flywheels!!

Posted by: steve #7

Yeah It kicks bacward whats the difference which way it kicks. All dirt bikes motors kick back . Its a dirt bike kick assembly for g** sake. go to the nationals an see how many there are. all 426 yamaha conversions . And CRF 450's. kick back. If you look at the pics I posted. The rear fenders are cut for a older 426 YFZ conversion. they are nothing but a drag anyway. This gives more than enough clearance to kick it. My 400 has a minus 3 swing arm for traction . The kicker clears the tires. If I am going to get nitwits replying to my posts I wont answer any more questions. Maybe 250x-kyle can apply a pull rope at the front of the seat. Since that seems to be where his strength is. This will be the end I was told there were real idiots on this site. Its all your loss you will never know some of the other things weve done to make free H.P. on other Quads . Now you can call your local dealer see what you learn from him. See Ya

Posted by: 250x_kyle

in other words u basically have a xr400 bottom end in it. if thats teh case then yes it would kick backwords. but dont go calling me a ***cing idiot considering the fact that the gear that has to be turned to start teeth are opposite slanted at a the opposite direction of the xr 400s starter gear. so **** you *** whole.

Posted by: 250x_kyle

of course all the hybrids are gunna kick backwards there genious there all dirt bike motors that come that ways stock. the xr 400 bottome end differs from the ex bottom end this is y one would kick forward and the other would kick backwards.

Posted by: 250x_kyle

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/needanewquad/ohio_5.jpg

where the kick start lever in this pick huh answer me this hot shot

Posted by: 250x_kyle

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/needanewquad/Untitled-1.jpg

Posted by: sc400ex_rider

wow that went well. thx for the true hot rodder tips steve. dont let some h8tin punk@$$ kid on a 250x bother you. you did what NO ONE ELSE COULD DO

kyle you are a total flake. jealousy is a strange emotion ehh? this guy obvisously knows what he's talkin about. what have you done?

this is an adult conversation if you dont have anything constructive to say plz stay out.

Posted by: GPracer2500

250x_kyle may be mistaken about the necessity of a forward kick and may not have any experience in making such converstions. But I'd hardly call this....

quote:
Originally posted by steve #7
....If I am going to get nitwits replying to my posts I wont answer any more questions. Maybe 250x-kyle can apply a pull rope at the front of the seat. Since that seems to be where his strength is. This will be the end I was told there were real idiots on this site. Its all your loss you will never know some of the other things weve done to make free H.P. on other Quads . Now you can call your local dealer see what you learn from him. See Ya"

....a mature response.

I mean come on--give me a break. That was totally unecessary and frankly, very rude. I'm not sure how anyone can share info across the Internet if they're going to be unreasonably touchy. Heaven forbid someone should say the wrong thing!

Steve #7, relax dude. Instead of throwing a hissy fit and insulting folks, why don't you just explain why they're wrong? You'll garner a lot more respect that way. Not to mention preventing yourself from looking like a self-rightous jerk.

Just callin' it like I see it.

Posted by: steve #7

the xr and the ex are the same motors except for the crank. It is longer on the mag side to make room for the one way clutch for the electric start. The picture you are refering to was from ohio last year before the kick was installed. if you read my other posts I said I never raced without the electric start yet. You will never get a 400 ex to kick front because you have to install the xr kick assembly. This is what I did. If you look at my other pictures you will notice I have a ex mag cover on with the starter drive cut off. and welded up. The xr mag cover will not fit the ex because of the longer crank. If it would have I would Have used it.here is a pic of the difference.

Posted by: steve #7

modified kicker as per Curtis Sparks

Posted by: steve #7

Heavy duty 200 xr kick shaft

Posted by: steve #7

EX flywheel with every thing cut off for ellectric start. and factory ex flywheel

Posted by: steve #7

Extended Kicker installed

Posted by: steve #7

support bearing installed

Posted by: steve #7

bearing support holder installed

Posted by: steve #7

ex cover and a hinson inner with a xr bolted on notice the plug installed by hinson in the ex cover vor use on the trx. I stole the outer cover for my EX

Posted by: GPracer2500

Awsome. Thanks for sharing the pics. Doing a kickstart conversion comes up from time to time but I've never seen the details from anyone who's actually done it.

Posted by: steve #7

Kick start installed for virginia . notice the electric start starter . Now how did that get on this motor If it would be a xr

Posted by: steve #7

Kick on one side

Posted by: steve #7

electric on the other

Posted by: steve #7

All three covers the EX one I welded and used in practice in Illinois. The XR which I bought for the conversion that doesn't fit because the cranks longer. and the one I put back on in Illinois when the kicker shaft broke from to much compression 15-1 which is still on the motor.

Posted by: steve #7

I have recieved alot of emails because I posted my email address. There has been many who just want to tell me it can not be done. so my motorhas to be a xr. I guess I just went off on Kyle because of a hard day trying to get this kicker back on. and he was my next posting after the emails. I am really Sorry Kyle I should not have went off on you. Everyone has the right to their oppinion .wrong or right?. The only reason I am insistant on this conversion is not because I want to kick start this thing.It has so much comp. it hirts your leg. Once I felt the difference in the power from the the flywheel swap. I hate putting that electric start flywheel back on. I know now why the xr motor runs better. Cut one lb off your electric start flywheel you won't believe the difference. Now take the extra 1 lb 6 oz off when you eliminate the electric start for a total of 2 lbs 6 oz and hang the he** on. So I had to make this work.

Posted by: GPracer2500

I wonder if there's any reason you couldn't adapt an XR400R manual decompression mechanism? I can't think of one. The EX valve cover is almost the same. I think they just don't machine the hole where the manual decomp valve lifter goes. But the casting is already settup for where the hole would go. I know the EX subrocker for the right exhaust valve already has the little nub on it that contacts the manual decomp valve lifter.

Maybe it wouldn't be worth the trouble but it's a thought if kicking over a high comp is really hard on the leg. And I can imagine it is--I wouldn't want to kick over a whole bunch of compression without some sort of decompression device (auto or manual).

Posted by: 250x_kyle

i shouldnt have been a dick about it either. but whats over is done. i see what you did now the post you made earlier just made it sound impossible. sorry for being a prick about it. do u know how much the conversion actually cost ? and to whoever said dont let some kid on a 250x bother you i have a 400ex or i wouldnt be spending my time in the 400ex section asking questions and helping out who i could would I. sorry steve but the it didnt seem like you had enough proof

Posted by: j450rking

do you think you could put a 250r setup in a ex engine b/c i think they are forward kick and you wouldn't have to mod as much. just a thought

Posted by: steve #7

I am going to be contacting Laury at Web Cams. The cam I am running is there biggest cam they make for the 400. I also had to use there hardened rockers. Shorter guides taller springs and I installed custom titanium valves . I know the holes on the cam are welded shut for the auto decom.. My piston to valve clearance is .050 and .075. I can' take any more out of the piston because there is only .025 left in the valve releafs. I am afraid if I hold the valve open with the decom. it will hit the piston and bend. Curtis sparks told me. If Laury can't help me He will send me a cam to try. I finished it up today and it started with one very hard kick. I took the tether off and kicked it wildly to see if the kicker shaft would take the abuse And it did. Andre the giant couldn't break it. So its a go for Virginia. This is going to be awesome. We love making people scatch there heads. I think I have one of the first pistons we made . Its the same as the one I am running but scored from heat If I can find it I will post the pics.

Posted by: steve #7

standard stroke piston cut for 4 mm. stroker crank

Posted by: steve #7

12 -1 440 piston before it is cut. The other picture also shows the v's cut in the piston to see how much metal is removed in the vave reliefs the other piston is 15-1 89 mm. [440] bore x 4mm. stroke = 460 cc

Posted by: steve #7

Also if you look close you can see the valve relief almost cuts into the ring land. I waisted 5 pistons at $100.00 ea. in this motor until it was right. now its seems bullit proof. all pistons melted from heat on the sides . Oil cooler for head was the trick.

Posted by: steve #7

250r kick parts will not fit. only xr400. The case is already machined for the xr kicker. All 400ex's have xr cases. except 2005 they changed the cases for the reverse mechanism

Posted by: j450rking

ok thanks

Posted by: GPracer2500

quote:
Originally posted by steve #7
.....I know the holes on the cam are welded shut for the auto decom.. My piston to valve clearance is .050 and .075. I can' take any more out of the piston because there is only .025 left in the valve releafs. I am afraid if I hold the valve open with the decom. it will hit the piston and bend....

Hmmm. Hadn't thought of that. As far as I know the auto-decomp holds the exhaust valve open about .056". I'm getting that figure by measuring the height of auto-decomp cam from the base circle (about .042") and then mulitplying by the lever ratio of the rockers (I believe about 1.34:1). I doubt my figures are exact.

Pretty sure the XR's manual decomp holds the exhaust valve open even more. It's been a while sense I kicked over an XR400 using the manual decomp. But I know on my XR650R the manual decomp releases nearly all the compression--more than just the auto decomp does.

Oh well....it was just a thought.

Posted by: 07250ex

GP what kind of quad do you have?

Posted by: GPracer2500

quote:
Originally posted by 07250ex
GP what kind of quad do you have?

Actually, at the moment I don't even own a quad. As far as off-road toys, right now I've got an 85' ATC250R, 95' CR250R, 00' CR500R, and a 02' XR650R.

Posted by: 07250ex

quote:
Originally posted by GPracer2500
Actually, at the moment I don't even own a quad. As far as off-road toys, right now I've got an 85' ATC250R, 95' CR250R, 00' CR500R, and a 02' XR650R.

fassst lol

Posted by: blasterman

ok so i just finished my conversion but was wondering if the 400ex needs to have the battery in to start because I know that some vehicles need a battery to start. If anyone could email me with any info that would be great my email is dsrrocks@aol.com

Posted by: skinful

lots of great info i here but for a guy like me just starting out and trying to learn I am lost. I am a quick learner but only when I'm shown how to...ANYONE live near saratoga springs NY...lol