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LS DC4 & Outlaw link vs Walsh Savior & lt arms
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Posted by: ACEOUTDOOR

Performance for the money, which do you think is best? Lonestar DC4 long travels and swinger with Outlaw likage(around $2K), or Walsh long travels with swinger and Savior linkage(around $3K). Anybody have experience with either on the mx track?

Posted by: hardkoratvmxr

walsh definately

Posted by: redrider05

hardkoratvmxr.....do u have previous experience with the walsh and the lsr longtravel set ups...ive only rode the lonstar dc4-outlaw link swingarm...and it felt great really plush smooth didnt pack up...but i have a resprung stock shock with a gthunder link and i think it works just as well or better.

Posted by: JR3

If you dont care how much money you spend then WALSH all the way.

Posted by: Dave400ex

Unless your at Pro-Am speed or very fast, I don't think you will be able to tell that much of a difference between the two. Either one should work awesome. Just make sure your suspension is dialed in perfect from somebody like Precision Concepts or GT Thunder...

Posted by: MXRACER86

I find it funny when people just automaticly say "walsh" even though they have never even tried it! LOL Im not saying it's not the best but just don't say "walsh" unless you tried it!

Posted by: Pappy

i prefer the LSR parts over the walsh. and i do not think the walsh is so far superior that it is worth the extra money it brings.

i ride a lsr equipped outlaw rear end, and it works very very well. ive also riden the walsh set up and it was equal to the task.

at the point you are getting ready to drop $3000, you are buying top of the line so you wont go wrong with either.

Posted by: slosh13

I would say either would be a good choice. Walsh is great stuff and works well. The LSR unit I have heard works really well too. Also if you are looking at other options, I'd heard that JB just came out with a new swingarm that uses Baldwins new linkage and a new single rate PEP shock. Im not suggesting you go that way, but it could be another option. Keep us posted in what your decision is and good luck

Posted by: macsolocam

Go with Holz...

Posted by: ACEOUTDOOR

I have heard that the LS Outlaw was a near copy of the Walsh linkage. I figured if there wasn't much diffrence in performance the extra money could be spent on shocks. Anybody run LS DC4's arms on the 450r? How do you like them?

Posted by: Pappy

i am running lsr's dc4 LT for XC. fit was spot on, finsih was excellent and they work like a dream.

Posted by: eagertorace

remember the shocks are more important, they must be setup for you and those arms.

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

Go with the one that figured it out first. Walsh! The others are knock offs. And before you get your panties in an up roar I DO have the savior.

Posted by: QuadRacer041

quote:
Originally posted by redrider05
hardkoratvmxr.....do u have previous experience with the walsh and the lsr longtravel set ups...ive only rode the lonstar dc4-outlaw link swingarm...and it felt great really plush smooth didnt pack up...but i have a resprung stock shock with a gthunder link and i think it works just as well or better.

i know i own walsh and i wont says if its better then lonestar or not but.......your on crack if you think your reprong stock shock with any link will out handle or work just as well as a walsh link with an aftermarket long travel shock.

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

quote:
Originally posted by QuadRacer041
i know i own walsh and i wont says if its better then lonestar or not but.......your on crack if you think your reprong stock shock with any link will out handle or work just as well as a walsh link with an aftermarket long travel shock.

Ditto

Posted by: dirtriderex

quote:
Originally posted by QuadRacer041

I was thinking the same thing

Posted by: shiftmx218

save your self some money buy the houser lt swinger and get the lt linkage, personally it was just as good as my cousins walsh set up and i didnt have to pay as much, just the pep's do set you back a bit

Posted by: motox450r

i know a guy who has 2 r's and has both swinger's, he said to go with lonestar. he didn't think the walsh was worth spending the extra dough. i guess your just buying the name. getting your shock dialed in is key. you definitely want to have it revalved for your particular swinger.

Posted by: motox450r

shift is on the right track he said the keyword PEP.

Posted by: ACEOUTDOOR

quote:
Originally posted by shiftmx218
save your self some money buy the houser lt swinger and get the lt linkage, personally it was just as good as my cousins walsh set up and i didnt have to pay as much, just the pep's do set you back a bit

Never had any experience with Houser. Good quality for MX?

Posted by: TRXDresh

Has anyone even seen the Baldwin Linkage. I have heard of many different setups, but I want to see pics. Show me the Baldwin Link

Posted by: motox450r

i'm really surprized my friend hasn't heard. he's runnin his motors and carbs. if baldwin has anything to do with it you know it will be good. don't even ask, just buy.

Posted by: redrider05

quote:
Originally posted by QuadRacer041
i know i own walsh and i wont says if its better then lonestar or not but.......your on crack if you think your reprong stock shock with any link will out handle or work just as well as a walsh link with an aftermarket long travel shock.

lol im on crack...rigggght-o captain....ur just the smartest thing ever cant even spell a simple word "reprong"?? what is that??
should jus leave ur comments to urself buddy

its was a gt thunder valved respring with laz's link and it did handle better then that outlaw with an elka lt shock..was it set up properly idk it was for the same weight as me but thats all i kno.laz does excellent work and set it up perfectly and helped me alot doing it..look what natalie did with a single peice linkage and a stock length shock!! and your telling me that that cant work nearly as good as the more expensive setups?? if there is someone that can set up suspension good that cheaper setup will work jus as well imo...

Posted by: Dave400ex

I think in most cases it's not the actual linkage setup that makes the difference, it's who sets up the shocks. Laz is Amazing with shocks, that is the difference. If the Elka on the Outlaw setup was done by Laz the same, I bet you would then notice a difference.

Posted by: ACEOUTDOOR

I always ran PEP built by Mark Baldwin in the past. Forgive my ignorrance but who is Laz and what shop does he work out of?

Posted by: diangelo#67

I love it when people compare their stuff to pro's most of the top pro guys could ride a stock 80 and beat us. a stock rebuilt shock is never going to compare to an aftermarket shock, and if it did then somthing was wrong wiht that shock..not gonna happen.

Posted by: QuadRacer041

quote:
Originally posted by redrider05
lol im on crack...rigggght-o captain....ur just the smartest thing ever cant even spell a simple word "reprong"?? what is that??
should jus leave ur comments to urself buddy

its was a gt thunder valved respring with laz's link and it did handle better then that outlaw with an elka lt shock..was it set up properly idk it was for the same weight as me but thats all i kno.laz does excellent work and set it up perfectly and helped me alot doing it..look what natalie did with a single peice linkage and a stock length shock!! and your telling me that that cant work nearly as good as the more expensive setups?? if there is someone that can set up suspension good that cheaper setup will work jus as well imo...

lol ok tough guy...

I think its more of forgotten letter then not knowing how to spell.
It was probably your ridiculous claim that got me so frazzeled.

Im not doubting Laz's work at all. It has nothing to do with him. Maybe if you were as good of a rider as Natalie you'd be fast too. I personally don't know what Natalie's running but a few years ago before this production rule what do you think everyone was running? Stock geo chassis with stock shocks? He11 no! Walsh and Laeger ruled the gnc series. They were running the best stuff made, aftermarket geo with long travel suspention. Is Nataile running a stock revalved shock now?NO!!! Because there is much better out there. You think if you told Laz money was no object which one would work better, his link and an aftermaket or his link and a stock revalve he'd tell you the revalve, yea RRRRIGHT.

I'm not saying the revalve is no good, but if thats all you can afford then it will suit you fine. But it is no means the best nor as good as an aftermarket setup. Of coarse shock setup is key, but I don't see Nataile sporting that stock rear shock or any pro for that matter......

O yea, YOUR is spell like <----------------not like --------->UR

Posted by: QuadRacer041

quote:
Originally posted by diangelo#67
I love it when people compare their stuff to pro's most of the top pro guys could ride a stock 80 and beat us. a stock rebuilt shock is never going to compare to an aftermarket shock, and if it did then somthing was wrong wiht that shock..not gonna happen.

Thank you.

Some people just dont understand.

Posted by: redrider05

jeeze didnt think i would "frazzele" somebody by just stating my oppinion on something lol dont c why u couldnt have jus left it alone...and your right comparing something to a pro is sorta pointless but that setup worked....all i was trying to get out was that for someone without deep pockets could spend a fraction of the money and get a great working product..even with an aftermarket shock it still be way cheaper then a savior or outlaw...if "your" thinking i said that a stock revalve is better then a aftermarket shock then u misunderstood...just on that day my cheaper setup outhandled my freinds big $$ lt setup...

sry if i chapped ur *** that bad ill be quiet now

Posted by: shiftmx218

look man what ever your gonna buy you are going to be happy because you can say you got to pick it out, i love my houser pep set up on the 250, i used to have a stock rear shock and a cafd swing arm, but then i switched over and i love it, and once i get my new shocks for the 450r it will rip also, anyways back to what i was saying, aslong as you get your shock set up for you it will be awsome for you. update us on what you choose. and good luck. later kk
ps anything to do with baldwin will be off the wall

Posted by: one450r32

some of these people are just mad cause they got beat by a quad with a cheaper setup, you go boy. tear em a new you know what. lol.

Posted by: QuadRacer041

quote:
Originally posted by redrider05
jeeze didnt think i would "frazzele" somebody by just stating my oppinion on something lol dont c why u couldnt have jus left it alone...and your right comparing something to a pro is sorta pointless but that setup worked....all i was trying to get out was that for someone without deep pockets could spend a fraction of the money and get a great working product..even with an aftermarket shock it still be way cheaper then a savior or outlaw...if "your" thinking i said that a stock revalve is better then a aftermarket shock then u misunderstood...just on that day my cheaper setup outhandled my freinds big $$ lt setup...

sry if i chapped ur *** that bad ill be quiet now

go back and read your first post, you said you think it will handle just as well or better, i didnt mis understand anything.thats what you said.

Posted by: FHKracingZ

Am i stupid or something??? If u check the prices on the Walsh Savior at Walsh's website it is $850..... The LSR Outlaw is $1,000.... unless im not reading something and u have to purchase the linkage from walsh seperate. But if not the walsh is cheaper.

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

U definatly need to buy the linkage too, which is a seperate price. Total package i THINK is somewhere around $1700

Posted by: FHKracingZ

Its not that exspensive...i was thinking it was in the $1300 range..

Posted by: redrider05

quote:
Originally posted by QuadRacer041
go back and read your first post, you said you think it will handle just as well or better, i didnt mis understand anything.thats what you said.

well just comparing from the one i rode mine did handle better....thats the only thing i can go one since its the only one i have ridden im sure whatever route he takes he will be happy none of the less

Posted by: ACEOUTDOOR

quote:
Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Am i stupid or something??? If u check the prices on the Walsh Savior at Walsh's website it is $850..... The LSR Outlaw is $1,000.... unless im not reading something and u have to purchase the linkage from walsh seperate. But if not the walsh is cheaper.

The Outlaw is $1100 linkage/swingarm, the savior is $1700 linkage/swingarm and you have to buy both to make it work. And I want to run the same brand a-arms as the swinger/linkage, that was the point of the thread.

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

quote:
Originally posted by redrider05
well just comparing from the one i rode mine did handle better....thats the only thing i can go one since its the only one i have ridden im sure whatever route he takes he will be happy none of the less

On isn't spelled one
you missed a comma after "one I rode"
And you totally disregarded the sentance structure of the english language

Sorry i couldn't resist LMAO

Posted by: QuadRacer041

quote:
Originally posted by Hammer trx450r
On isn't spelled one
you missed a comma after "one I rode"
And you totally disregarded the sentance structure of the english language

Sorry i couldn't resist LMAO

hehehehehehehehehhe

Posted by: redrider05

lol this is great!! Two grown men im assuming that just could'nt just leave there oppinion on what the guy should do and be the end of it.Had to hammer on me to get your rocks off i see.

real cool guys

BTW: I hope i spelled a little better for you

sorry to whoever started this thread...if i had to choose between the two setups you picked it would most likely be the lonestar because of price and availability, quality is very nice also

good luck

Posted by: QuadRacer041

quote:
Originally posted by redrider05
lol this is great!! Two grown men im assuming that just could'nt just leave there oppinion on what the guy should do and be the end of it.Had to hammer on me to get your rocks off i see.

real cool guys

BTW: I hope i spelled a little better for you

sorry to whoever started this thread...if i had to choose between the two setups you picked it would most likely be the lonestar because of price and availability, quality is very nice also

good luck

dude, your the one that started the whole thing corrcting my spelling.
dont be sorry for giving your opinion thats what this place is for. but dont try to make a rediculous claim about a re worked stock part being better then some top of the line product.
you keep saying something about stay out of this thread or keep your comments to your self, or what ever but you made a statement that was crazy dont think people are going to let this guy think what you say is correct.
then you say your setup was better then the one you rode...so that makes them all bad, maybe the one you rode wasnt set up right by the guy who owns it?????
my point is dont be mad at me because your getting your balls busted. thats what happens when you try to be cool by correcting me yet you make a thousand mistakes yourself,...

Posted by: R3Concepts

This thread has good info on it.. Some things that have not been brought up. We run the BMS link, with a PEP 8 click rear and I will try to get a pic of it for the person that wanted one.

Posted by: laeger2fiddyr

the walsh savior is 1300.00 list with linkage, not 1700.00

Posted by: redrider05

quote:
Originally posted by QuadRacer041
dude, your the one that started the whole thing corrcting my spelling.
dont be sorry for giving your opinion thats what this place is for. but dont try to make a rediculous claim about a re worked stock part being better then some top of the line product.
you keep saying something about stay out of this thread or keep your comments to your self, or what ever but you made a statement that was crazy dont think people are going to let this guy think what you say is correct.
then you say your setup was better then the one you rode...so that makes them all bad, maybe the one you rode wasnt set up right by the guy who owns it?????
my point is dont be mad at me because your getting your balls busted. thats what happens when you try to be cool by correcting me yet you make a thousand mistakes yourself,...

I started it lol i think ur the one that called me a crack addict for stating something that was the truth and im the one being all cool?and no that outlaw probaly wasnt set up correctly and i even said that.i never said that my gtt setup was far superior to anything elsebut i still think laz can set it up to be comparable to those setups being the stock part or aftermarket and still be less costly. but hey i left my oppinion and you left yours ill just leave it at that

Posted by: Pappy

said in best gay bob voice....

"Jesus Christ"

Posted by: redrider05

thanks r3 that was a great thread to post!!

Posted by: Pappy

R3, i read what you posted at org thx to the link, but your statement "axis cant get it right the first time" is absurd. my axis is more then i could ask for and getting the new LS Outlaw set up was one of the easier combos ive ever worked with. I have to question exactly how many set ups people that reply to some of these threads actually get to spend time on....not pointing that directly at anyone, it just seems to me that there are alot of folks that think they have the square answer yet lead you in circles.

Posted by: Gitterdone

Well now, I just read this whole thread as well as a bunch of others, let me see if I can get this straight now.

R3 worships PEP and Baldwin

Axis builds shocks but dont know squat

R3 knows squat (they're on a first name bases) but dont build shocks

Pappy, Bill Ballance. Joe Byrd and many others like Axis, so they must not know squat

If you want to know if the LSR long travel is better then the Walsh or Vice Versa, you will get a sales talk for BMS

Did I miss anything?

Posted by: QuadRacer041

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy
R3, i read what you posted at org thx to the link, but your statement "axis cant get it right the first time" is absurd. my axis is more then i could ask for and getting the new LS Outlaw set up was one of the easier combos ive ever worked with. I have to question exactly how many set ups people that reply to some of these threads actually get to spend time on....not pointing that directly at anyone, it just seems to me that there are alot of folks that think they have the square answer yet lead you in circles.

, ya think?

Posted by: Pappy

LOL..WELL bms DOES some great work, as do others. and these days it seems you get a sales talk with any "advise" someone wants to give. we are all guilty of it to a point. i know i will not tell someone anything unless i have expierence with it, or enough first hand info to draw an educated opinion.

but to claim some of the things ive seen stated make me think i should just post what ever i can to help bolster whoever is the flavor of the week

Posted by: ACEOUTDOOR

I am more confused now than before I started this thread.

Posted by: R3Concepts

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy
R3, i read what you posted at org thx to the link, but your statement "axis cant get it right the first time" is absurd. my axis is more then i could ask for and getting the new LS Outlaw set up was one of the easier combos ive ever worked with. I have to question exactly how many set ups people that reply to some of these threads actually get to spend time on....not pointing that directly at anyone, it just seems to me that there are alot of folks that think they have the square answer yet lead you in circles.

That's great that Andy or Eric, at Axis hit your setup for the Outlaw on the 1st time..Or so you think. If you sent it to Laz maybe something is still off, and it could ride that much better. I've seen many ride Axis, and I'm not knocking Axis, because I rode Axis in 05'. I just dont think that they are up to par. No 2 shocks will be the exact same from Axis even if you ordered the exact same ones. Call Laz and see if thats a true statement. I cant say as far as the Savior riding becuase Ive only ridden an Outlaw. Yes, it was with a PEP and yes, it was spot on. It worked very well. Although I cant see spending the cash for the rear end, over a standard style link rear end. I guess again this would greatly depend if its MX or XC. I think my BMS link/PEP 8 click rides just as good as the Outlaw setup that I rode. The only place the Outlaw succeded was square edge stuff, it took a little more muscle to get my bike through the same section.

Posted by: R3Concepts

quote:
Originally posted by Gitterdone
Well now, I just read this whole thread as well as a bunch of others, let me see if I can get this straight now.

R3 worships PEP and Baldwin

Axis builds shocks but dont know squat

R3 knows squat (they're on a first name bases) but dont build shocks

Pappy, Bill Ballance. Joe Byrd and many others like Axis, so they must not know squat

If you want to know if the LSR long travel is better then the Walsh or Vice Versa, you will get a sales talk for BMS

Did I miss anything?

And you are?? Had to make a new name to post in this topic?

R3Concepts uses PEP shocks. We stick with what works and what we like. Even if PEP and Baldwin didnt sponsor us, then we would still be on PEP.

On a standard style link basis only: Axis builds great shocks, just not up to par with PEP, we've ridden both, for lengths of time to give an honest determination. Axis use to only build compression adj., single rate rear shocks for the 450R, they didnt want to give up the extra 1/2" of travel it takes to add an adjuster, since the shock is already to short. Without that it sucks, it rode better on a stock link, then ANY aftermarket link, and whattaya know, thats what Axis is saying now, since they finally realized it. Theres over 100# of spring rate difference between the stock and GTT links, anyone knows thats huge. But know that they have a stock shock style, rebound clevus maybe it will do better.

Bryd rides Axis, on a STOCK 05' link.

The Savior and the Outlaw are virtually the same, the Savior hangs a little lower, which is bad for any place other then the MX track. The most important is the shock, and building good progression into that shock to make up for the LT linkage.

We give Marks name or a plug for BMS where?? Once again stating what works for us. Next time post with your regular name.

Posted by: Pappy

so now to be good it has to be sent to Laz

come on man, i like laz but in all honesty ive felt his set up versus others and it wasnt anything so special that id claim it to be outright superior then all other available set ups. the gt thunder bandwagon has grown, but its to the point of making him look bad by some IMO. Laz does good work, and i think i know him well enough to know he wouldnt want people over promoting him, or the caliber of his work. a great number of his customers are feeling a decent set up for the first time and think its the best thing since sliced bread. its good, and it works no doubt, but making such claims will only degrade what he CAN do with his set up. whats next, walk on water tricks only if your have gt thunder prepped shoes..haha(dont tempt him i bet he could make it happen!)

derisi does good work also, along with baldwin and many many others. and not one of them is so far superior then the other that a clearly superior set up for every person that rides can be chosen no matter how much someone wants to tout any one builder. you could change the name from Laz to Baldwin to Derisi to Precision Concepts to whoever on any given month if you get my point.

Posted by: R3Concepts

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy
so now to be good it has to be sent to Laz come on man, i like laz but in all honesty ive felt his set up versus others and it wasnt anything so special that id claim it to be outright superior then all other available set ups. the gt thunder bandwagon has grown, but its to the point of making him look bad by some IMO. Laz does good work, and i think i know him well enough to know he wouldnt want people over promoting him, or the caliber of his work. a great number of his customers are feeling a decent set up for the first time and think its the best thing since sliced bread. its good, and it works no doubt, but making such claims will only degrade what he CAN do with his set up. whats next, walk on water tricks only if your have gt thunder prepped shoes..haha

derisi does good work also, along with baldwin and many many others. and not one of them is so far superior then the other that a clearly susperior set up for every person that rides can be chosen no matter how much someone wants to tout any one builder. you could change the name from Laz to Baldwin to Derisi to Precision Concepts to whoever on any given month if you get my point.

Well said and understandable..My point is that Laz is probably the best with Axis, and then Santo, Mark with PEP, and Allen White with Elkas...Its not promoting any of them, or their conversions, but the most knowledgeable about Axis is Laz from what we have done with him.

Posted by: Pappy

quote:
Originally posted by R3Concepts
Well said and understandable..My point is that Laz is probably the best with Axis, and then Santo, Mark with PEP, and Allen White with Elkas...Its not promoting any of them, or their conversions, but the most knowledgeable about Axis is Laz from what we have done with him.

well, that statement reflects a more insightful look at your opinion, but still does not negate the claims you seem to like to make. ive already spoken to other shock builders that are laughing thier rear ends off at this thread. i only wish i knew enough of the technical side of the issue to be more involved, because some of what im hearing sure sounds like it could be used to implode some of the "facts" being stated these days on the internet

why dont they get on here and explain it? maybe they are incorrect and dont want everyone to see it..lmao

all i know is that i am very satisfied with my set up. and i would expect anyone else paying out for a savior or outlaw or the next best thing to come is satisfied as we all should be. and to add, ive stated for some time now that i was exstatic about riders finally being able to have thier stock shocks worked on to provide a ride quality nearing that of a full aftermarket set up so i dont want to hear any bellyaching about me only wanting high dollar parts

Posted by: R3Concepts

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy
well, that statement reflects a more insightful look at your opinion, but still does not negate the claims you seem to like to make. ive already spoken to other shock builders that are laughing thier rear ends off at this thread. i only wish i knew enough of the technical side of the issue to be more involved, because some of what im hearing sure sounds like it could be used to implode some of the "facts" being stated these days on the internet why dont they get on here and explain it? maybe they are incorrect and dont want everyone to see it..lmao

all i know is that i am very satisfied with my set up. and i would expect anyone else paying out for a savior or outlaw or the next best thing to come is satisfied as we all should be. and to add, ive stated for some time now that i was exstatic about riders finally being able to have thier stock shocks worked on to provide a ride quality nearing that of a full aftermarket set up so i dont want to hear any bellyaching about me only wanting high dollar parts

Good idea, why dont the techs @ Axis come on here and comment? They can tell us about Byrds testing, and why they decided to keep a stock link setup. My claims are strictly that, claims, but Ive ridden many different setups and the Axis didnt have it, period. Maybe the Axis rear with the Outlaw is a better setup due to the longer shock valving, you would have to fill us in on that one, but I do know that the single rate, comp. only for MX for an aftermarket link, didnt work well for us. Sorry to the thread starter for all this mumbojumbo.

Posted by: Pappy

quote:
Originally posted by R3Concepts
[B]Good idea, why dont the techs @ Axis come on here and comment? They can tell us about Byrds testing, and why they decided to keep a stock link setup.

Maybe the Axis rear with the Outlaw is a better setup due to the longer shock valving, you would have to fill us in on that one, but I do know that the single rate, comp. only for MX for an aftermarket link, didnt work well for us.B]

with regards to Byrd, thats exactly my point. not every rider is the same or even likes the same set up so how can one say this product from this builder is the BEST?

as far as the outlaw and the axis, i have no idea. part of what keeps me sane is NOT knowing the tech side of alot of issues. that keeps me with the majority

all i can add is that when i got the outlaw package started, the folks helping me clearly stated that at that time axis had the set up down and i would not be unsatisfied, and they were correct. i also made it known that it had better be, because if i dont like it then i have no choice but tell folks i dont like it. hell, i purposley had a rider hit a double and come up short i bet more then 20 times just so i could watch the quad work. i find all that stuff really cool to watch and maybe learn something in the process. (some say it better be good for me because i tend to come up short alot ..lol)

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by ACEOUTDOOR
Performance for the money, which do you think is best? Lonestar DC4 long travels and swinger with Outlaw likage(around $2K), or Walsh long travels with swinger and Savior linkage(around $3K). Anybody have experience with either on the mx track?

I have read this entire thread and saw a lot of good information here as well as some good information that could use a better explanation. I realise I am stepping into a hornets nest on this issue. If you have any questions regarding rear suspension on the 450R feel free to ask. I will answer to the best of my knowledge based on my currant experiance and rest assured I hope to know much more about this subject by this time next year. Remeber also that I have not ridden on the same tracks that most of you have and my experiance may be from differant testing then your riding conditions.

Please note I will only answer specific questions - I will ignore questions like - like which is better. I will give you as much info as I can and welcome anyone to challange me - thats no fun but that is how we learn.

I would love to see a good discussion here from a few good suspension guys so i can learn more.

First off - in answer to your original question - From the measurements that I have taken between the Walsh and the Lonestar setup - the biggest differance you will see between the 2 will be in the shock setup. To get good bottoming resistance, both of them will need a dual spring setup to give the progression needed when getting close to the maximum up travel of the rear wheels. Simple things such as the extended length of the shock and the compressed length of the shock can play a huge factor on how the suspension works.

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

As far as shocks go for either of those setups - pay attention to what Pros are riding the rear end succesfully and talk to the person who setup the shocks for them - they should have the most experiance with that shock and rear end and should be able to get you the closest on the first try.

Posted by: kbass24emtp

Hi Laz. What do you think about titanium springs? I would like to know what you think about them, because I am thinking of uppgrading to one. Right now I have a DeRisi link and rebuilt shock, but am thinking of getting an Axis tripple adj rear with ti spring, with the DeRisi link.

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by kbass24emtp
Hi Laz. What do you think about titanium springs? I would like to know what you think about them, because I am thinking of uppgrading to one. Right now I have a DeRisi link and rebuilt shock, but am thinking of getting an Axis tripple adj rear with ti spring, with the DeRisi link.

The Ti springs have a differant spring curve then we are used to seeing in standard springs - mostly because of how they wind them differantly trying to save weight. Count the coils and see how a lot of them have coils that are further apart - this effects how the spring pressure changes as the spring is compressed and the end coils come in contect with the next coil. The Ti springs also rebound differantly then a convensional spring. All this being said - how the shock is setup to work with the Ti spring can and will effect how it works. They are not a lot differant, but they are differant. If they are setup correctly, the biggest advantage that I have seen is the weight savings.

Posted by: Pappy

Laz, sorry i cut our conversation short, i had a question so ill ask it here.

the 06 linkage and rear shock have changed over the 04/05

did this help the quad any and why wouldnt they fix it correctly from honda? i know you have been the head brain on most of the linkage stuff since way before most that are marketing them now, i just want to know how much trouble would it have been for honda to properly fix the 06 and maybe why they wouldnt?

Posted by: kbass24emtp

How much of a weight savings are you looking at.

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy
Laz, sorry i cut our conversation short, i had a question so ill ask it here.

the 06 linkage and rear shock have changed over the 04/05

did this help the quad any ?

Yes - it has a better leverage ratio then the 04/05.

The progression ratio is also not bad for MX.

Any shock company that can build a shock with the correct extended length and compressed length - can make the stock linakage work very well. The correct lengths in the shock is however hard to achieve because of the low shock mount on the frame for some shock companies.

The change was of little help to the XC guys, since the progression ratio ramps up very high once you get enough up travel of the rear wheels for 20 inch tires.

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy

the 06 linkage and rear shock have changed over the 04/05

i just want to know how much trouble would it have been for honda to properly fix the 06 and maybe why they wouldnt?

What is a proper fix??

I believe the biggest complaint is the low shock mount on the frame, which limits the length of the shock that you can use.

Why didnt they make certain changes - who knows, and I know a lot of people asking that question.

One thing to remember - an MX guy and an XC guy have differant needs because of the differant tire sizes and differant type of tracks that they are ridden on.

In the past, the companies sold one quad and everyone adapted it to their form of racing, but with the high volumn of sport quad sales, It would be nice if they would release MX and XC specific quads.

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by kbass24emtp
How much of a weight savings are you looking at.

The front springs I have in stock:

24 oz - each

Vs.

13.25 oz - each

With that in mind - I can switch to Ti on my bike and have a few more slices of pizza.

Posted by: Pappy

quote:
Originally posted by LS@GtThunder

With that in mind - I can switch to Ti on my bike and have a few more slices of pizza.

maybe ill start saving for Ti everything..i love pizza

thanks for answering Laz, it will be fun to see if anyone wants to jump in and see if they can throw you a challenge! id ask more, but id be better off challenging you to a pizza eating contest

Posted by: MXRACER86

Do you feel that the new dual rate piggy back Axis shocks are better performing the the regular version?

Posted by: watts16

quote:
Originally posted by LS@GtThunder
The front springs I have in stock:

24 oz - each

Vs.

13.25 oz - each

With that in mind - I can switch to Ti on my bike and have a few more slices of pizza.

sent you a PM

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by MXRACER86
Do you feel that the new dual rate piggy back Axis shocks are better performing the the regular version?

Are you talking about the front shocks??

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by MXRACER86
Do you feel that the new dual rate piggy back Axis shocks are better performing the the regular version?

Piggyback?? I have not taken one apart or tested it - so I dont know. If it has the same internal valving setup as the remote style and has the same peak flow rate it should work the same as far as the rezy goes.

Does it have improved features? I dont know but I plan to find out.

I do know that piggy back shocks are a lot nicer to take on and off the bike for us lazy folks.

Posted by: MXRACER86

But why would they make the front shocks dual rate instead of the old triplerate? How can a dual rate work better that a triple rate shock?

Posted by: Pappy

quote:
Originally posted by MXRACER86
But why would they make the front shocks dual rate instead of the old triplerate? How can a dual rate work better that a triple rate shock?

id like to add to that question also...

do you think there will be a trend to use more dual rate set ups or even progresive rate springs as time goes on? and what is the reasoning and benefit if any?

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by MXRACER86
But why would they make the front shocks dual rate instead of the old triplerate? How can a dual rate work better that a triple rate shock?

Why "they" do it?? I dont know - it is lighter.

It is very differant dialing in a specific spring curve with dual verses triple or quad rates.

I will run whatever combination I need to, to get the spring curve that I am after. On my personal shocks it is either a progressive spring or a dual rate if possible. The problem with that is that the spring length and the spring rates become very critical and what the spring pressure is when it crosses over to the main on a dual spring setup can make or break the setup.

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy
id like to add to that question also...

do you think there will be a trend to use more dual rate set ups or even progresive rate springs as time goes on? and what is the reasoning and benefit if any?

Trends come and go.

Quad rate one day.

Dual rate the next.

What doesnt change is - does the final setup work??

Who knows where its headed??

Posted by: kbass24emtp

quote:
Originally posted by MXRACER86
But why would they make the front shocks dual rate instead of the old triplerate? How can a dual rate work better that a triple rate shock?

I think they are only dual rate with the titanium springs.

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

quote:
Originally posted by LS@GtThunder
Trends come and go.

Quad rate one day.

Dual rate the next.

What doesnt change is - does the final setup work??

Who knows where its headed??

Thanks for coming on, muchly appreciated. I have the Savior with Axis dual rate rear. Coming from the Elka with old style link I'm in love. The problem I am having is the rear has a tendency to come around on me under heavy breaking. Is this something I got to get used to or is something i can tune out with my setup?

Posted by: R3Concepts

quote:
Originally posted by Hammer trx450r
Thanks for coming on, muchly appreciated. I have the Savior with Axis dual rate rear. Coming from the Elka with old style link I'm in love. The problem I am having is the rear has a tendency to come around on me under heavy breaking. Is this something I got to get used to or is something i can tune out with my setup?

Hard front or rear breaking? Tire pressure front and rear?

Posted by: Prey

quote:
Originally posted by ACEOUTDOOR
I am more confused now than before I started this thread.

hey man, i am only addressing you cause i dont want to get in the middle of this discussion LOL

and not commenting on outlaw or savior

my 04 has the walsh swinger, gt thunder link and elka that was converted to a single rate and rebuilt by allen white. (when i bought it, it had walsh arm, elka link and dual rate elka and rode like a turd)

the rear end now offers way more capability than i will ever use and is one of the most awsome set ups i have ever been on. with that said, maybe you can save your self a few $$ and go with a standard set up. JMO

btw, i am not trying to say one component is better than any other, i just think WHO does the work is the important thing.

Posted by: Pappy

quote:
Originally posted by Prey

btw, i am not trying to say one component is better than any other, i just think WHO does the work is the important thing.

WHO is correct, seeing you traded links that are the same..lmao

dont believe me, ask R3 and get out your measuring equipment

Posted by: Prey

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy
WHO is correct, seeing you traded links that are the same..lmao

dont believe me, ask R3 and get out your measuring equipment

the little bearings where siezing in the elka and i was told the thunder link is a more durable link

Posted by: Pappy

quote:
Originally posted by Prey
the little bearings where siezing in the elka and i was told the thunder link is a more durable link

bearing quality may be a different issue, i know the first bearings in the elka link sucked, im talking about the measurements of the link. ( i dont know how to explain it all, i was just trying to get yet another person to claim one was so much better then the other! LOL)

Posted by: R3Concepts

The GTT link uses OEM bearings.

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

quote:
Originally posted by R3Concepts
Hard front or rear breaking? Tire pressure front and rear?

Hard front breaking, front pressure 10 psi, rear 9 psi

Posted by: Prey

quote:
Originally posted by Pappy
i was just trying to get yet another person to claim one was so much better then the other! LOL)

not me man.............

Posted by: R3Concepts

quote:
Originally posted by Hammer trx450r
Hard front breaking, front pressure 10 psi, rear 9 psi

Go to 12 in the fronts, 8 in the rear...How much throttle with front braking? Does the front dive into the corner bad when you brake hard?

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

quote:
Originally posted by R3Concepts
Go to 12 in the fronts, 8 in the rear...How much throttle with front braking? Does the front dive into the corner bad when you brake hard?

I'll try that. It was doing it in a high speed slighty choppy sweeper that ended in a 90 degree turn so its hard to say if i had any throttle on.

Posted by: R3Concepts

If the front end dives down real hard, under heavy front braking then add more compression to the front shocks. Also if you come into a corner real hot and you use a lot of front brake, and you are subconscienely pinning it, the rear end has nowhere to go but around(actually very fast, but takes a ton of throttle,and braking control). With a lot of front brakes the quad will have a lot of rear steer. If you split the duties between the back and front or use strictly back brake to slide it into the turn, it may not feel as strange.

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

I definatly know what you are saying as i sit here with a broken collar bone that just won't heal. Its definatly something i need to try. Thanks for your help

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

And ill bet i was "subconsciosly pinning it". since it happened at a time when i was really pushing the limit of my braking point. Was a rather violent event.

Posted by: Jersey450R

quote:
Originally posted by Hammer trx450r
And ill bet i was "subconsciosly pinning it". since it happened at a time when i was really pushing the limit of my braking point. Was a rather violent event.

yes, is was a very voilent event. i never packed up so quick ever. ron, that things not healed yet?!

Posted by: Hammer trx450r

quote:
Originally posted by Jersey450R
yes, is was a very voilent event. i never packed up so quick ever. ron, that things not healed yet?!

I got appointment at Jefferson for 2nd opinion Feb 3. The last time we rode i hurt it and it hasnt been right.

Posted by: yamablaster24

hey Laz while your here, i have some questions about my 2006. I ran a gt thunder on my moto-tech swingarm on my 416ex and loved it. It sat extremely low and handled on rails. This was nick donaldson's old bike. Anywho, I have the bone stock 2006 now and as always im going to be racing MX on it, 4-stroke Quad in CRA and maybe some nationals but I have to run B class according to CRA-ATVA rules. Can you rebuild the front shocks also? Can you rebuild rear and still use the stock link? Can you PM me prices i couldnt find anything on the site. I used to run TCS ZPS DR rear and TR front with remote rezzi. I Loved these and preferred the Dual Rate rebuild over the rebuild that was done on my other bike (gt thunder on stock link with moto tech swinger )

Posted by: LS@GtThunder

quote:
Originally posted by yamablaster24
hey Laz while your here, i have some questions about my 2006. I ran a gt thunder on my moto-tech swingarm on my 416ex and loved it. It sat extremely low and handled on rails. This was nick donaldson's old bike. Anywho, I have the bone stock 2006 now and as always im going to be racing MX on it, 4-stroke Quad in CRA and maybe some nationals but I have to run B class according to CRA-ATVA rules. Can you rebuild the front shocks also? Can you rebuild rear and still use the stock link? Can you PM me prices i couldnt find anything on the site. I used to run TCS ZPS DR rear and TR front with remote rezzi. I Loved these and preferred the Dual Rate rebuild over the rebuild that was done on my other bike (gt thunder on stock link with moto tech swinger )

Thats almost enough info and questions to make my head spin.

If you rebuild the rear and use the stock linkage (not a bad idea for MX) you will either be short on wheel travel or the shock builder needs to install a travel extender on the inside and then shorten the body to get as close as possible to the desired up travel and down travel of the rear wheels as possible.

Posted by: L-P

I'M a little late but a guy wanted some pics of the Baldwin linkage

Here's my setup. I love it !!!

The hole setup :

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/walshmx/P1020140.jpg

Linkage :

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/walshmx/P1020142.jpg

Rear shock :

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/walshmx/P1020141.jpg

Thats it

Bye

Posted by: duncan440ex

my question is, i hear everybody is either running PEP or Axis on thier outlaw package why not elka? are the other two shocks that much better? I run my outlaw with an elka, i'm just curios why.