[plugs] - ATV Riders Forums - Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Polaris, CanAm, Arctic Cat, Kymco ATVs

Pages:1

plugs
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: jcas

Has anyone ever heard of an NGK B9EG spark plug? Can I use one in my 87 310R? I was ordering parts from rocky mountain when I saw it, so I ordered it. I usually use the the br9es. Can I use it? Is there a better plug to use? Thanx

Posted by: HH250R

the B9EG is a non-resistor plug. a BR9ES OR BR9EG for instance are resistor type-the r in the number stands for resistor. there is a reason for running a resistor plug, but i forget off the top of my head. you should be able to run a B9EG with no problems

Posted by: wilkin250r

The resistor reduced EMI noise from the plug. This is important in cars with high-fidelity stereos or sensitive electronic equipment. Unless you have some really trick aftermarket electronics on your quad, you're safe with a non-resistor plug.

Posted by: beerock

well, I dont agree with that, the resistor plug (BR8ES) wont burn out the stator like the non resistor.

i dont know why your running a 9 run the br8es... and call it a day.. with the 9 you will lose power

Posted by: deathman53

I found my r runs better with a b8es, thats all I use, currently I have a br9es, because I fouled out at the track and all I could find was a br9es. I have a cr ignition, so maybe there is something different with that igniton and plugs.

Posted by: beerock

regardless of how you look at it the br8es will run better then a 9 its a hotter plug and will there for burn more gas thus creating more power.

You might not notice it now, but the non resistor plugs WILL burn out your stator

Posted by: Rich250RRacer

Burn out a stator? What kind of crack are you smoking? You don't need a resistor plug, unless, like the other guy said, you've got a really kickin' system on that quad. If your jetting is close you can run a B7ES with absolutely no problem. I've been running them for years in all three of my 250r's and my CR's, and have never had a problem. Just to let you know, an ES is a standard plug, EG is a gold plug, and an EV is a V-power plug.

Posted by: zedicus00

i run a bp5es, works great for my setup.

Posted by: beerock

quote:
Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
Burn out a stator? What kind of crack are you smoking? You don't need a resistor plug, unless, like the other guy said, you've got a really kickin' system on that quad. If your jetting is close you can run a B7ES with absolutely no problem. I've been running them for years in all three of my 250r's and my CR's, and have never had a problem. Just to let you know, an ES is a standard plug, EG is a gold plug, and an EV is a V-power plug.

I said it once and ill say it again, over time you will burn out the stator if you run a non resitor plug. I am not the only one that agrees with this. maybe if YOU put down the pipe you would understand ohms law.

Posted by: jcas

Thanks guys. I'm gonna run it till it fouls and then stick with the br8es or other resistor plugs.

Posted by: Rich250RRacer

I own three 250r's and three CR250's, all of which are ridden regularly, I have always run non-resistor plugs, and I have NEVER, NEVER replaced a stator in any of these machines. Maybe your problem is elsewhere.

Posted by: wilkin250r

If a non-resistor plug burns your stator, it is NOT by Ohm's Law.

Ohm's law says that if you have a lower resistance, you get a higher current and higher power. Well, if your stator is sending more power through your sparkplug, it will burn the stator, right?

Wrong. For several reasons.

First, your stator is not directly connected to your sparkplug. It is connected to a capacitor, and the capacitor is connected to a coil, and the coil is connected to your sparkplug. The stator charges up the capacitor to a few hundred volts. A capacitor is like an electrical storage tank, sort of like a battery. But unlike a battery, a capacitor can be charged to several hundred volts, and it can dump it all at once, nearly instantaneously.

The trigger on the edge of the flywheel activates a transistor, which causes the capacitor to dump all it's several hundred volts through the coil, which bumps it up to several thousand volts, which then fires across the spark plug gap.

Now, the capacitor discharges completely every time. It's always empty after the spark plug fires, whether it is a resistor or non-resistor. So the stator never knows whether you have a resitor plug or not. The only load the stator ever sees is charging up the capacitor.

Neat thing about capacitors, they don't care whether you have a resistor plug or not. It will make the discharge pattern look a little different, but that won't hurt the capacitor at all.

The only problems with a non-resistor plug are impedance mis-match, reflections, and EMI. And quite frankly, these issues are WAY too complex for me to exlain here. I suppose it's possible for bouncing voltage signals and reflections to cause mis-fires and multiple triggers, or other problems that can lead to excess wear on the stator, but that's certainly not Ohm's Law. Not only that, but it's much more likely to affect the CDI than the stator. But in my experience as an Electrical Engineer, these issues are REALLY unlikely.

Posted by: Rich250RRacer

Thanks for backing me on this, you have explained it far better than anyone else on here. Of course the guy who hasn't cleaned his carb in four years might want to argue it with you.

Posted by: wilkin250r

Just because he's wrong on this particular issue doesn't completely discredit him. Beerock generally has good info. Heck, even I have learned a thing or two from him.

I respect him immensely, even as I correct him.

Posted by: Rich250RRacer

No disrespect to anybody on here, just seemed like he wanted to argue the point, and I want to have a little fun with it. But that's how I've always been. Hope he doesn't read too much into it, I've seen the pics of his quad and it looks like a really nice machine.

Posted by: TRX370R

I have ran both the BR8ES and the B8ES. I wasn't able to tell any performance between the two but what I have noticed was when running the B8ES at night with the lights on that they flicker alot and it blows the bulbs out. To me this means that my electrical system is not happy with the non resistor plug......I'll stick with the BR8ES.

Posted by: beerock

no disrespect taken from anyone

I wasnt arguing though I had a reason just couldnt get the main facts right.

thanks for the correction wilkin, been a long time since ive played with caps. I did get this one wrong, but i wasnt sure if it was the stator or cdi, after wilkins thread i see why it cant burn out the stator. but then again TRX3370R posts tells me it does have a impact on using non resistor plugs on the R. So my previous statment was not completely incorrect(not using a resistor plug ) but my facts, Which i got from mac dizzy a while ago coincide with what wilkin said about the cdi. THAT was what they said at macdizzy, i just wasnt sure if it was the cdi or stator so i took the stator and ran with it. MY BAD

SO with this info seems like not running a non resitor plug is bad for the bulbs and for the cdi, now thats 2 reasons to run a Resistor type plug on the R, albeit a br9es, br8es, or even a br7es

So the guy who hasnt cleaned his carb for four years will bow out now

I KNOW JIM(honda 350r) would know this stuff CHIME IN MAN!

Posted by: Knips178

wow, i miss the beerock bash fest from rriders.

With absolutely no authority to say this, I once heard that resistor plugs were primarily used on quads with lights. On race quads where the lights have been removed the resistor is not needed and its better to jump to a hotter plug like a b8es.

maybe someone can confirm or deny this remark

Posted by: beerock

quote:
Originally posted by Knips178
wow, i miss the beerock bash fest from rriders.

With absolutely no authority to say this, I once heard that resistor plugs were primarily used on quads with lights. On race quads where the lights have been removed the resistor is not needed and its better to jump to a hotter plug like a b8es.

maybe someone can confirm or deny this remark

the b8es burns the same as the br8es its not a hotter plug it has 8 as its heat range

Posted by: wilkin250r

A non-resistor plug WILL have a slightly hotter spark, but I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference.

Posted by: powerslider

The non resistor plug will fire at a lower voltage than a resistor type due to the lower internal resistance. The operating temperature of the plug is determined by it's heat range, the spark isn't hotter from one to another of the same gap.

The primary ignition circuit is not physically connected to the secondary as a completed circuit so a non resistor plug won't affect the primary. The ignition coil contains two windings; primary-secondary. The high voltage in the secondary is induced by primary current interuption.

As for heat range I run 9's in the high compression engines and non resister types in all of them...

Posted by: wilkin250r

The capacitor has a certain amount of energy stored in it. In a resistor-type plug, the energy stored in the capacitor and coil gets dissipated across the resistor and the spark plug gap. If there is no resistor (a non-resistor plug) then the ENTIRE energy of the cap and coil gets dissipated across the gap. By law of conservation of energy, a non-resistor plug HAS to have more energy in the spark.

Posted by: powerslider

The voltage required to jump the plug gap is what it is, be it 20kv or what ever. Once that gap is bridged the energy dissipates to ground until it's to low to jump the plug gap. Time of dissipation may vary slightly between the two plugs.

What does hotter spark actually mean?

Posted by: powerslider

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/home...nition/CDI.HTML

Some info on ignition systems, they use "hotter" also refering to spark intensity not neccessarily temperature rise ( which I associate hotter with)

At any rate, being the R ignition system is somewhat marginal to begin with having a "hotter" spark with a non resistor plug would be a good thing to have IMO...

Posted by: Rich250RRacer

quote:
Originally posted by powerslider
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/home...nition/CDI.HTML

Some info on ignition systems, they use "hotter" also refering to spark intensity not neccessarily temperature rise ( which I associate hotter with)

At any rate, being the R ignition system is somewhat marginal to begin with having a "hotter" spark with a non resistor plug would be a good thing to have IMO...

I've always run B7ES in my CR's and 250R's, they seem to last longest and are less prone to fouling. I've never had any kind of problem.

Posted by: wilkin250r

quote:
Originally posted by powerslider
The voltage required to jump the plug gap is what it is, be it 20kv or what ever. Once that gap is bridged the energy dissipates to ground until it's to low to jump the plug gap. Time of dissipation may vary slightly between the two plugs.

What does hotter spark actually mean?

That's very difficult to explain the whole thing, because there are multiple things going on. First, the voltage across the gap rises until it is sufficient to jump the gap. This builds the electric field across the gap. When the electric field is sufficiently large, it ionizes the air in the gap, making it more conductive. As electrons begin to jump across the gap, the voltage drops, since the resistance has decreased. Electrons now jump from one side of the gap to the other, which results in the "spark".

There is more to "energy" than just voltage.

You are correct, the voltage required to jump the gap is constant. A "hotter" spark can be different things, depending on the circuit. It could mean the voltage AFTER the initial ionization is higher, resulting in a larger spark CURRENT. Same spark time, more electrons. You physically get a hotter spark. Or, it could be spark duration, the spark lasts longer.

To be quite honest, I've never studied the actual physical circuit in the CDI. My bet says it's the first scenario. You get a initial firing voltage of about 20kV to ionize the air in the gap. The voltage then drops to about 1-2kV as electrons actually cross the gap. Once the electrons start moving, you get a voltage drop across the resistor in resistor-type spark plug. If there is no resistor, you don't get a voltage drop, so the voltage during the spark could be higher, say 2.5kV. This would result in more electrons across the gap.

It's not just as simple as "firing voltage"

Posted by: powerslider

Thanks for the reply Wilkin, We're both on the same page I just question the terminology sometimes to make sure I understand correctly, and for the others that read the info.

Happy New Year!!!!!

Posted by: wilkin250r

For more info, I highly suggest the article "Anatomy of a Waveform" by Bill Fulton. Do a web search.

Posted by: Knips178

I have a my motor bored way out and it runs hot. Do different plugs help or hurt high compression engines that run hot?

Posted by: wilkin250r

quote:
Originally posted by Knips178
I have a my motor bored way out and it runs hot. Do different plugs help or hurt high compression engines that run hot?

As most questions, this doesn't have a simple answer.

The first point I'll bring up is that high compression makes it more difficult for the spark to jump across the spark plug gap. In fact, the turbulence can actually blow the spark out if your gap is too big. If you ever have problems with your ignition system with high compression, the first fix is to try a smaller spark plug gap.

The second point I'll bring up is that high compression increases cylinder tempuratures, which will heat up the spark plug more. This can cause the tip of the spark plug to get too hot and create detonation. You'll know this if it happens, it's pretty hard to mistake. You would need a colder plug. A colder plug will not actually make your engine run cooler, it just makes the tip of the spark plug cooler so it doesn't get too hot. You want the tip hot enough to burn off deposits so it doesn't foul, but not so hot that it glows red and causes detonation.

As long as these factors are taken care of, any spark plug will do.

Posted by: Knips178

Very usefull info Wilkins, thanks!

Posted by: MyKe2g3

I also use br8es. I have tried 9's which are supposedly hotter but they dont last long and are better for yamaha engines. The resistor plugs will last longer or they seem to me. Ive tried using a resistor ignition and non resistor and found that the resistor ign and plugs tend to last longer and generate a better spark.

Posted by: powerslider

9 is colder than 8....

Posted by: racerx573

quote:
Originally posted by powerslider
9 is colder than 8....

^
When my buddy let me borrow his R for a few months to race a couple years ago, it would foul plugs like none other. It was a 9. We couldn't figure it out. Then we put one of my Blaster plugs (BR8ES) in it, and had no problems..

go for a BR8EVX best plug you can buy from NGK.

Posted by: slick250

Wilkins hit this discussion right on. Honda did not put resistor plugs in to be television or radio friendly, and they definitely did not do it to lower spark plug firing intensity.....Spark Duration is the reasoning....probably a few other factors too.